Ep. 46: Lit It or Quit It: Red Rising by Pierce Brown

Join Kelsey and Amanda as they dissect Pierce Brown's 'Red Rising,' with Kelsey expressing her skepticism and critique while Amanda passionately defends the dystopian adventure. With a mix of humorous tangents and spirited debate, they navigate the complexities of class hierarchy, rebellion, and what makes a book truly unforgettable.

00:00 Content Warning and Introduction

01:04 Social Media Shoutout and Milestones

02:45 Current Reads and Recommendations

11:11 Summary of Red Rising

17:50 Book Discussion

57:16 Final Thoughts and Recommendations

01:02:38 Literally the Best or Worst Reviews

Follow us on TikTok & Youtube @litvibesonlypodcast and on Instagram @litvibesonly_podcast. You can also email us at litvibesonlypodcast@gmail.com We'd love to hear from you!

See you on Mondays!

Transcript

Ep. 46: Lit It or Quit It: Red Rising

[00:00:00] Amanda: In order to make choices that are best for you, please note that this episode does contain brief mentions of rape 

[00:00:07] Kelsey: Welcome to Lit Vibes Only, where we lit the shit out of books we love and hate. I'm Kelsey, the unhinged, diehard, romantic and fantasy reader. 

[00:00:21] Amanda: And I'm Amanda, the insightful, thrill seeker and historical fiction nerd. Welcome once again to a Litre Quitted episode. This is our second one for July, and we are diving into one of, oh my gosh, is it.

[00:00:37] Amanda: All time. Yeah, it is. It's crazy. Like when this comes out, I feel like summer will be halfway over. That's kind of depressing actually. Wow. It's like we're 

[00:00:46] Kelsey: always ahead in time. We are. 

[00:00:49] Amanda: We're both ahead in time and backwards in time. Yes. Sort of because we're going. Yeah. Anyhow. But yeah, it'll, it'll be our second requited episode, one of my all time [00:01:00] favorite books.

[00:01:00] Amanda: So I'm very curious to see what Kelsey's response was to this. Mm. But before all of that, as always, as always, come check us out on socials. We are on Instagram yes. At Lit Vibes only under podcast and YouTube and TikTok at Lit Vibes only podcast. So if you're not already following us over on our socials, please be sure do that because it's great.

[00:01:21] Amanda: We have officially hit 1000 followers, which again will be old news. It's so 

[00:01:27] Kelsey: exciting. It's very 

[00:01:28] Amanda: exciting. This will be old news by the end of July, but 

[00:01:30] Kelsey: ooh, 

[00:01:31] Amanda: so exciting. We're getting ready to like do our first little book giveaway, so that'll be fun. Yes. Another reason why you should be on our social, all the books 

[00:01:39] Kelsey: that I made, Amanda Reed.

[00:01:41] Amanda: Yeah. Well, not all of them, but a good chunk of them I'm gonna try to get rid of. Yes. So yeah, so another reason to get on our social is so you don't miss out on fun things like book giveaways, but most importantly, if you are sitting out there. You still have not rated this podcast or written a what are you doing?

[00:01:59] Amanda: What are you [00:02:00] doing? It takes like literally no time at all. And we really could use that as we're growing, especially as we're growing our socials, we wanna make sure we're growing here. Mm-hmm. Because that's kind of where this all started. So be sure to, on either Apple Podcast or Spotify, hit that five star rating.

[00:02:16] Amanda: And if you have a little bit of extra time, taking a moment to jot down a sentence or two and let us know what you're thinking about the podcast so far. Mm-hmm. Feedback, encouragement. We will take it all a hundred percent just away for other folks to find us out in the vast world of podcasts. So please, and thank you, and we're so glad that you are mm-hmm.

[00:02:40] Amanda: Here with us today. 

[00:02:42] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[00:02:44] Amanda: So, yes. I forgot to ask you actually before we started, Kelsey, if you had Book Talk T or if we should just talk about what we're currently reading. 

[00:02:51] Kelsey: No, current book talk T. Okay. But we could definitely talk about what we're reading. 

[00:02:57] Amanda: Excellent. 'cause I've got a good one. [00:03:00] Okay. So I'll start I guess.

[00:03:01] Amanda: Okay. So I am actually, and again, this might come as a surprise to some folks. I am listening to an audio book. I know that's, it was wild. This is the second audio book that I've listened to. Recommended by the same book talker. So someone who follows us on book talk. So Brooke Uhhuh. Brooke Cox, if you're out there and you're listening, hey, based on your recommendation, I'm listening to a Calamity of Souls by David Bald dci, I think that's how you say his name.

[00:03:28] Amanda: Oh, okay. And it is both historical fiction and crime fiction. Mm-hmm. So it's set in the late 1960s in Virginia where a black man has been accused of murdering this wealthy, white, older couple. Oh. You know, swears that he is, , being unjustly accused. Mm-hmm. Has asked this white lawyer, Jack Lee to represent him.

[00:03:51] Amanda: Ultimately, he teams up with a black female lawyer from the north, from Chicago who comes down to you know, help him on [00:04:00] this case. Mm-hmm. And to defend this man. And she's part of the Legal Defense Fund, which is something that was founded. Mm-hmm. As part of, like, it worked in conjunction with the NAACP and then kind of branched out and, and was its own entity.

[00:04:13] Amanda: And so it's just, incredible and devastating just looking at all of the horrible injustices, you know, that were continuing to be perpetuated even after, the civil rights acted pass, even after, integration was supposed to be happening in these schools and there was like so much.

[00:04:31] Amanda: Resistance. Right. And just like the small slights that were happening on a regular basis to black people, like, you know, in one scene they go to a bar to get a drink. So Jack and this black woman, Desiree, and they bring her her glass of wine and there's like a glob of spit in the top of it, you know, and it's just like little things like that where it's just like those constant micro and macroaggressions Yeah.

[00:04:53] Amanda: That were just a daily part of black people's lives. Especially in, , the Jim Crow South and mm-hmm. Even can [00:05:00] post Jim Crow South. So it's great. I Love audiobook where they have different actors to do the different voices, because one of the last books I listened to was a thriller.

[00:05:06] Amanda: Mm-hmm. And it was a female narrator, and so she would be trying to do the guy's voices and it was so obvious, a woman could tell and it just like, didn't work for me, it just took me out of it. So I love that they have a cast of characters for this one. And I do wanna do more like dramatized. Audio books too, because I know that's 

[00:05:23] Kelsey: Yeah.

[00:05:23] Kelsey: They actually have like Yeah. Fully dramatized. Yep. Audio books. Yeah. Which doesn't read exactly like the book. Yeah, right. Yeah. But it's like, it's a whole different experience scenes, Uhhuh. I've never read one, so, or listened to one. So yeah, I'd be curious too. Yeah, 

[00:05:39] Amanda: I'm definitely, definitely gonna do that for sure.

[00:05:41] Amanda: But anyhow, that's what I'm currently reading at Calamity of Souls by David Ucci. Highly recommend it so far. 

[00:05:47] Kelsey: Oh I'm still, and I don't, I don't know if I mentioned this in the last episode, but I think I did okay for the last, like, littered or quit it. 

[00:05:55] Kelsey: I am still reading Legend Born by Tracy Dion.

[00:05:59] Kelsey: Did I say [00:06:00] that? Well, you had just, I think were just starting it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still reading that. I need to finish it by tomorrow because that's when our book club meets. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm really enjoying it. Yeah, it's a like secret society esque. Okay. And I think it's kind of a murder mystery where she's trying to figure out why her mom died.

[00:06:21] Kelsey: Okay. But she didn't realize it was related to these things? She had no idea. Okay. It was related to what it's related to, so it's very curious. 

[00:06:31] Amanda: Oh, okay. Mm-hmm. Would you recommend it so far based on what you've read? 

[00:06:36] Kelsey: Yes, I would. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And so many tiktoks, I come across reviews. They're just like, I'm so sad I didn't read this sooner.

[00:06:45] Kelsey: Yeah, that's what I've been seeing it 

[00:06:47] Amanda: everywhere on book talk. Oh, yeah. That's why I was like, yeah. Even though that's not normally the genre I read, I want to read it because Yeah, yeah, yeah. People are just like raving about it 

[00:06:55] Kelsey: consistently. But you're, you're seeing it on book talk, right? 

[00:06:57] Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. Well, book talk 

[00:06:59] Kelsey: is 

[00:06:59] Amanda: [00:07:00] really like, I know, I know.

[00:07:01] Amanda: A mixture 

[00:07:01] Kelsey: of us, 

[00:07:03] Amanda: but Yeah. But the other thing too, I think is that not only have people been raving about it, but I wanna, I love supporting black authors too. Yeah. And like authors of color, so I'm like, I also wanna check it out, especially in the fantasy. Genre where that can be rare. Yeah. So I am, I'm excited to, I'm definitely thinking about having you read it for sure.

[00:07:22] Amanda: Okay. Yeah. Oh, then maybe I'll just wait and read it for the podcast. Yes. It'll be fresh in my mind for that episode. Perfect. Very cool. Sounds like we're both reading great books. Of course, listeners, you can always comment on this episode and let us know, know what you're reading. That would be also helpful, especially if you're on Spotify.

[00:07:40] Amanda: But yeah, we have a really great episode for y'all today. And the book that I had Kelsey read was Red Rising by Pierce Brown. Mm-hmm. And there are a couple of reasons why I chose this book for Kelsey. One, I wanted to kind of flip the script because obviously. Fantasy and sci-fi is not one of my primary [00:08:00] genres.

[00:08:00] Amanda: Mm-hmm. And if anyone's recommending fantasy, it's usually Kelsey recommending me Yes. To read it or forcing me to read it. So I wanted to do something a little different. This is also one of those books that I recommend all the time to everyone. Always. I, wow. It is one of my all time favorite books, for sure.

[00:08:20] Amanda: My favorite trilogy. Whoa. Just obsess and honestly, I don't even know if I can fully articulate why I think this, the story is solid and I loved the arc that it takes over the three books, Uhhuh, it just felt so epic and cinematic to me when I was reading it. And I think I read it, you know, not too long after I had read.

[00:08:43] Amanda: The Hungry Games and other dystopian ya fiction. Mm-hmm. And so I was really excited to find kind of an adult version of that. Yeah. Essentially. So there was definitely a huge appeal for me when I first stumbled across this trilogy. Mm-hmm. And I don't think we've read a book [00:09:00] quite like this on this podcast so far.

[00:09:03] Amanda: Either not, we definitely haven't really read any sci-fi. I mean, we read Kindred, which does have the time travel aspect, but I still don't really consider that sci-fi. I know some people do. No. And I know Octavia Butler, you know, is considered a sci-fi writer. But outside of that, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, Kelsey, we haven't really done sci-fi.

[00:09:21] Amanda: No, I don't really think so. Yeah. And we certainly haven't done like a. Kind of a space sci-fi where it's definitely noting kind of this like interplanetary setup. So yeah. Yeah, I just wanted to also do something different. I also know this is a very popular series, like people who love Red Rising, like love Red Rising it has like a pretty big fandom and fan base.

[00:09:39] Amanda: So I also wanted to loop in some of those folks as well. And hopefully they'll check out this episode and enjoy it. So those were my reasons. Lovely. So Kelsey, short answer, was this book a lit it or quit it for you? It [00:10:00] is killing me. Spit it out woman. 

[00:10:06] Kelsey: I have to divide it. Nope. I Have to, I can't.

[00:10:11] Kelsey: It's not an option. Well then if I can't, it's a soft, quit it then. Ugh. 

[00:10:17] Amanda: This is like a knife to the heart because you're the first person I've ever recommended this to. Who didn't like it? It's okay. That's okay. I'm not, I'm not dying inside right now. I So it's fine. 

[00:10:28] Kelsey: Quickly. Okay. I really, really liked the setup.

[00:10:32] Kelsey: Okay. Until he got to the institute. And then the institute. I was like, what? The hook? 

[00:10:36] Amanda: Oh, I love the institute. Okay. That's fair. Okay, 

[00:10:39] Kelsey: so we'll get into it. Okay. Yeah, we will because I, yeah, 

[00:10:42] Amanda: I 

[00:10:42] Kelsey: have thoughts. 

[00:10:43] Amanda: Yeah. Okay. All alright. So it's a soft, it's a soft Quit it or maybe it was a soft lit it up until the institute That's, 

[00:10:53] Kelsey: see that's what I'm saying.

[00:10:54] Kelsey: Okay. It was a lit it until the institute. 

[00:10:57] Amanda: Okay. So half of the book is a lit it, half of [00:11:00] it's a quit it. Yes. That's why I was trying to say, and you wouldn't let me, I still think that's kind of breaking the rules, but that's interesting. Okay. That does gimme some clarity as to Yeah. What you thought about the book.

[00:11:10] Amanda: Yes. Okay. Yeah. Well then you have the mammoth task of trying to summarize this book, giant book. It's, you know, it's not even a super long book. It's under 400 pages, but it has a huge cast of characters and takes place in several locations, which can be hard to track. And there's a whole, there's a whole system of society that you have to explain so as well, 

[00:11:33] Kelsey: Godspeed to you.

[00:11:35] Amanda: Okay, 

[00:11:36] Kelsey: here we go. Okay. Alright. In the distant future, human Society has colonized the solar system and evolved into a rigid cast hierarchy. Defined by color. The golds are at the top, powerful, intelligent, and genetically engineered to rule. The reds are at the bottom. Laborers bred for hard physical work and subservience.[00:12:00]

[00:12:00] Kelsey: Other colors fill roles in between, but the entire system is designed to keep the lower classes oppressed. The story begins beneath the surface of Mars, where 16-year-old Darrow a hell diver a dangerous mining job, risks his life to extract Helium three. Believing his labor helps terraform Mars for future human settlement.

[00:12:23] Kelsey: Darrow is quick, smart, and brave, but also resigned. Like most reds, he has internalized the belief that suffering is noble. Darrow's wife EO is idealistic and rebellious. She sees beyond the lies and believes the Reds are enslaved, not heroes. After she leads Darrow to Forbidden Garden on the surface, and sings a revolutionary song, she's arrested and publicly hanged before her execution, she whispers to Darrow break the chains live for more.

[00:12:54] Kelsey: Her death ignites something in Darrow. In a moment of anguish and defiance, he [00:13:00] buries her body, in forbid, in a forbidden place, and is subsequently arrested and sentenced to death. But just before his execution, he's rescued by a mysterious rebel group, the Sons of Aries. Mm-hmm. And is brought above

[00:13:15] Kelsey: the suns reveal a harrowing truth. Mars is already terraformed. Cities thrive on the surface, and reds are slaves kept ignorant underground. They offer Darrow a mission, infiltrate the, and help bring down the society from within. To do that, he must become one of them. What follows is a gruesome transformation both physical and psychological.

[00:13:39] Kelsey: Darrow undergoes undergoes surgery to alter his body. He's taller, stronger, faster, and more beautiful. He's reeducated and gold customs, history, combat and strategy. He's no longer a red in any visible way. He must earn a place among gold society by entering the institute, a brutal training [00:14:00] ground where the Gold's children are shaped into future leaders.

[00:14:05] Kelsey: The institute is not a school in the traditional sense. It's a simulated war. Students are divided into houses named after Roman, gods Mars, Jupiter, Minerva, and so on. Darrow is drafted into House of Mars, led by the Proctor Mars, a corrupt and cruel overseer.

[00:14:24] Kelsey: Each house must capture and rule over territory. Students are encouraged to enslave starve or kill rivals. It's a brutal microcosm of how gold society actually functions through dominance, fear, and manipulation. Darrow uses not only his physical prowess, but also his deep understanding of oppression and leadership.

[00:14:46] Kelsey: He quickly begins to form alliances, most notably with several, a small scrappy outcast with sharp instincts and a feral personality. Mustang, which is also [00:15:00] Virginia Augustus. Mm-hmm. A brilliant and compassionate gold who challenges darrow's assumptions. Mm-hmm. Pacs. Tele Teleman, Teleman Teleman.

[00:15:12] Kelsey: I just dunno how to pronounce it. Okay. A towering warrior with a heart of gold who becomes darrow's protector, but he also faces deadly enemies like Cassius. Bona. Bona a proud and. Skilled fighter who becomes Darrow's friend until he finds out that Darrow actually killed his brother and the jackal, A cold and CUNY manipulator who turns out to be the son of one of the most powerful men in society.

[00:15:41] Kelsey: Darrow rises by forming a new kind of leadership one based on merit, loyalty, and strategy. Rather than sheer cruelty, he conquers other houses and unites enemies. Under his banner, he rewrites the rules of the institute. When he finally defeats the jackal and wins the game, the proctor's attempt to cheat [00:16:00] him out of victory.

[00:16:01] Kelsey: Darrell defies them threatening to expose the corruption. This wins him the attention of Neuro Augustus Arch Governor of Mars, and one of the most powerful. Powerful. Oh my God. Powerful golds, who in the end adopts Darrow as his own protege. Mm-hmm. And so Darrow's journey ends with him on the precipice of true power.

[00:16:27] Kelsey: He has succeeded beyond anyone's expectations. He is now embedded within the very heart of the oppressive system he hopes to destroy, but with the success comes greater danger. No one knows who he truly is, and if he's discovered his mission and life will end, he has become a gold in form, but remains a red in soul.

[00:16:48] Kelsey: With eos memory as his guiding star, Darrow is determined to tear the society down.

[00:16:54] Kelsey: Not just by vengeance, but for justice. 

[00:16:57] Amanda: Hey, you made it. You made it through. I made it [00:17:00] through. That was, that was actually a very succinct summary. I feel like it hit the, the main point without getting poured too bogged down in details. Yes, and I will say, again, I feel like I'm starting to say this more and more often, but this is a book that I think you should read.

[00:17:17] Amanda: Because a lot happens and it'll be much easier to, I think, understand this episode and enjoy it. If you've read it again, you can certainly enjoy it without having read it, but there's a lot that happens, especially once they get to the institute with all of just like the betrayal and the murders.

[00:17:32] Amanda: It's a lot, a lot happens. Yep. So just like immediately as soon as they get, literally, like it's wild. Yeah. Okay. Thank you for that lovely summary. Thank you Chad, GPT for that lovely summary. It worked so really well. It did. I again like it, it did it, it did the thing. Okay, so as always let's.

[00:17:53] Amanda: Start with some positives. Yes. I know they only cover the first half of the book, but yeah. What were some of the [00:18:00] things 

[00:18:00] Kelsey: you liked in the first half of the book? Yeah, so I really enjoyed the setup and like the emotional draw of, okay, they're clearly being a press because eo all she has to do is sing this song that essentially marks are for death, right?

[00:18:17] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. And then they're like, oh, okay. Like clearly there is some rebellion going on. So I enjoyed that part and

[00:18:23] Kelsey: I enjoyed that eo, like really believed that they were oppressed, but then Darrow was kind of like ambivalent to it and really even keeled about it usually. So like, yeah, this is the life, this is, I. Yeah. He lived, bought 

[00:18:37] Amanda: into, he fully bought into the the lies they were fed for sure.

[00:18:40] Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah. And and he was clearly a skilled hell diver. Mm-hmm. And it's interesting thinking about like his skills that were brought from that mm-hmm. Along the way. Mm-hmm. And so I enjoyed seeing into the red society. Okay. And then I also enjoyed the fact [00:19:00] that it was like this big betrayal around like, oh fuck, there's actually, the cities are actually here, the civilization is actually here.

[00:19:09] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. And the, the surprise and shock that that brought. 

[00:19:13] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:19:13] Kelsey: So that was intriguing to me. Mm-hmm. And then this whole crazy transformation, I was like, what the fuck? Like, I've never seen something like that Uhhuh Uhhuh. So I was like super intrigued about that. Okay. And so those are things I really liked.

[00:19:29] Amanda: Okay. Okay. Also, just , to add some more clarity for folks so. The reds have been underneath the surface of Mars for 500 years. And the Helium three, that their mining is used to terraform different planets. Mm-hmm. And so there have been people living on the surface of Mars and the surface of other planets that have been terraformed by Helium three for hundreds of years at this point.

[00:19:51] Amanda: And the reds have no idea. Right. They're literally like living down in these holes under the earth. Mm-hmm. Just as minors. So that's a huge shock, as [00:20:00] Kelsey said. Big revelation. And the other thing to note too is that your color, so if you're red, a pink, a green, whatever, is also indicated on you physically.

[00:20:11] Amanda: So like if you're red, like you have red hair and like a red eye, red eye is like, so it's like, it's also very obvious, like just looking at someone, what color they belong to. And it's one of many reasons why. Darrow had to be carved, right. So essentially remade physically Yeah. Into a gold. And it's a horrific, incredibly painful, intense process that most people don't survive.

[00:20:37] Amanda: Yeah. So I think it's also important to point that out. Like he literally had his body, like physically remade in this horrible, painful way. They had to come up with a fake backstory for him because all of the, you know, goals are essentially like royalty and they have all of these, like wealthy mm-hmm. Families and like a lineage, right?

[00:20:56] Amanda: Mm-hmm. So like, which house are you from? And who are your people? Yeah. So I, yeah, I [00:21:00] definitely, the premise of this book got me for sure as well. Mm-hmm. So I, I agree about that. I really liked that. Darrow both had fully bought into the lie that they had been sold.

[00:21:15] Amanda: Mm-hmm. And had convinced himself of that because that's what's mm-hmm. That's what happens in reality, right? Yeah. With a lot of oppressed groups, it's not like mm-hmm. Oh, they're just stupid. Why can't they see, et cetera, et cetera. It's like mm-hmm. No, they truly believe that whatever information they've been told is in fact the truth, and Yep.

[00:21:30] Amanda: Yes, I am being this noble, brave soul by working hard to terraform these planets and make life better for future generations. Like Right. That is my purpose. That's what drives me. Mm-hmm. That's what gets, gets me up in the morning and also makes me feel like a good person. And so I liked that he wasn't right off the bat, just like, yeah, tear down the system, death to the man, you know?

[00:21:51] Amanda: Right. Yeah. He needed some convincing to get there, and it ultimately took the death of his wife. And even his, his dad was also hung ear, like earlier. [00:22:00] Oh, right. Yeah. For revolutionary behavior. So it took mm-hmm. Some time for that. For the scales to kinda be pulled away from his eyes and for him to see the way that things were.

[00:22:08] Amanda: And I really liked that 'cause it felt more authentic than . For someone to just kind of, not out of the blue, but , for that change of mindset to not be earned. You know, I dunno if I'm making any sense. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:19] Amanda: But yeah, it felt really authentic and so I really liked that about the story too.

[00:22:24] Amanda: Okay. But a good chunk of the story obviously takes place at the institute. That's like really the bulk of the novel and it sounds like you really disliked that. Yeah. 

[00:22:36] Kelsey: And it, the main reason is that's why Yeah. The main reason is 'cause it just felt like. This really long war. And I was like, I didn't like it.

[00:22:47] Kelsey: It just like went on forever. And I was like, yeah, okay. They're gonna battle each other, they're gonna be strategic. And again, and then now he's changing his ways. And I'm like, okay. But it's the same thing, Uhhuh. 

[00:22:59] Amanda: So it [00:23:00] just 

[00:23:00] Kelsey: felt like the same thing happening over and over and over. 

[00:23:03] Amanda: Okay. I mean, 

[00:23:04] Kelsey: in the last half, 

[00:23:05] Amanda: it, it is a war book.

[00:23:07] Amanda: It for sure. Is a war book. Yes. I will not sugarcoat that. And if war books are not your thing, you will not like this book. You probably won't like this series. Right. Because the whole arc of the trilogy is him overthrowing this corrupt society. And so there's a lot of conflict and, and politicking and espionage and like all of those things.

[00:23:27] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[00:23:27] Amanda: It does, you know, once it gets out of the institute 

[00:23:31] Kelsey: mm-hmm. 

[00:23:32] Amanda: It's not as. Mm. Like back to, back, to back. Like conflict, conflict, conflict, obviously. Yeah. The pacing kind of slows down a, a little bit. Mm, okay. 'Cause the institute is meant to be like this really intense rather short, it's, they're not there for super, super, super long training program, essentially.

[00:23:50] Amanda: This really brutal training program. Yeah. So I could see, I see your point. I, I do, I think because of all of the. [00:24:00] Twists and turns that happened in all of the betrayal and deception, uhhuh, and like, I thought you were a bad guy, but maybe you're not. It keeps you on your toes. Like it keeps you guessing.

[00:24:09] Amanda: It's not sure. Okay. Yeah. For me, in my opinion, it's not like, here are the bad guys. They're absolutely bad. They're always gonna be bad. Done. It's like, here's what we think is a bad guy. But maybe they're actually, you know, like, good. And they, they have this reversal and they end up like really supporting, Darrow mm-hmm.

[00:24:26] Amanda: And becoming like a close bosom buddy and, and compatriot so. 

[00:24:29] Kelsey: Well, and some people become that and then go back to enemy. Yes. Like, yes. Exactly. 

[00:24:34] Amanda: So, so I liked that. It wasn't like this clear cut, like, here are the good guys here there. Sure. And even Darrow does bad stuff technically, like Oh yeah, 

[00:24:41] Kelsey: totally.

[00:24:42] Kelsey: You 

[00:24:42] Amanda: know, like he's, he is killing people. He is lying about who he killed. Like all of these things, so, mm-hmm. You know me, I love fricking messy characters who are not like the clear cut good guy and bad guy. Because Darrow is not just a straight up, good guy. He's not. And we see him [00:25:00] making some, he has to make some really difficult choices.

[00:25:03] Amanda: He has to make some questionable choices. Yeah. And so, yeah, there's no clear, like black and white delineation and I love that in a book. I love that gray space. 

[00:25:15] Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I could see that too. And I think the other important thing is like, man, Darrow goes through a lot of different, like. Changes.

[00:25:27] Kelsey: Yeah. And like arcs, right? Because initially he's like, I'm just gonna be pure force and brutality and this is how I'm gonna win this. Mm-hmm. And then he gets what is it called? Like 

[00:25:38] Amanda: tactical and strategic or like, well, yeah, but then he gets, 

[00:25:41] Kelsey: Betrayed, right? Yeah. Because the proctors are trying to have the arch, what's his name?

[00:25:46] Kelsey: Arch? Governor. Governor. Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:48] Kelsey: Sun win, and it's like totally rigged. Mm-hmm. Which is another insight to like the actual society and what's going on. Yeah. But, so then his friend Cassius finds out [00:26:00] that he killed his brother. Mm-hmm. In the beginning trial. Mm-hmm. And then kills him or tries, attempts to kill him.

[00:26:06] Kelsey: Yeah. And almost kills him. Yeah. But then he's saved by, wasn't it Mustang that saved him? I think this. I think so. Yeah. 

[00:26:12] Amanda: Yeah. And so, so, so do you wanna explain to listeners really quickly, like the whole Julian thing? 

[00:26:18] Kelsey: Sure. .

[00:26:19] Kelsey: Okay. Okay. So the first test that they have to face, they meet each other and then they're put into these rooms mm-hmm. With one other person. Mm-hmm. And they're told that only one of them is going to survive. Mm-hmm. And. The person that Darrow is paired with is Julian. Mm-hmm. Wait, it's Julian, right?

[00:26:39] Kelsey: Not Juli. Yeah. Julian. Yeah. Julian. Yeah. And he feels this is like a point of the story where he's like, oh shit. Like I'm gonna have to do bad things. Really awful things. Yeah. This institute or in this journey. Mm-hmm. Hmm. And he kind, he's kind of starting to come to terms with that. Mm-hmm. And he understands right away that he has to kill Julian.

[00:26:58] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. And Julian's like, [00:27:00] no way. They're not gonna do this. They're not killing us. 

Yeah.

[00:27:03] Kelsey: And so he doesn't believe it. And so Darrow , he ends up killing Julian. Yeah. Mostly like in a fairly easy way because Julian was really caught off guard. Yeah. And wasn't gonna believe that his society was doing this.

[00:27:17] Kelsey: Yeah. Which is interesting. Yeah. So then they have to like, travel through these tunnels and stuff and get out, and then you see all the people that like survived. 

Mm-hmm. And then, 

[00:27:26] Kelsey: Cassius is Julian's brother. Mm-hmm. And Cassius is looking for his brother. Mm-hmm. And nobody knows. Who killed who.

[00:27:35] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. And no one's gonna say who they killed. Mm-hmm. Because 

mm-hmm. 

[00:27:39] Kelsey: They know their siblings and Yeah. Rivalries and, or partnerships that were built before Yeah. Before that. And so, so yeah, it was an intense, like, experience from the beginning. And then after that is when they go into like this war area mm-hmm.

[00:27:56] Kelsey: That they're putting into houses and stuff. 

[00:27:58] Amanda: Yeah. And the thing too, [00:28:00] to know about Cassius is that, so ultimately Cassius does find out that Darryl killed his brother. Yes. And that leads to like this like blood feud essentially. And Cassius is like mm-hmm. I'm gonna hunt you down and kill you.

[00:28:12] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[00:28:13] Amanda: And so, and that carries through, you know, onward in these books. So it's a really kind of key Oh, okay. Yeah. Part of the story. But yeah, that's the first moment I think where you see, I. Darrell realizing like, which is like this bigger question, right? Like, is it okay to do something wrong? If ultimately it's gonna help you do something for the good, for the greater good, right?

[00:28:35] Amanda: Right. 'cause again, he's like, mm-hmm. Well, my main objective is to overthrow this really problematic society mm-hmm. And make it more equal. But , to get to that point, like, you're gonna have to compromise your soul and your morals and like, right. There's that. Yeah. So it's like, is that, is that okay?

[00:28:55] Amanda: Like, are you willing to do that? Is that worth it? Is it worth it? And like what the [00:29:00] morality is there, because again, I love talking about mm-hmm. Stuff like this and thinking about it and you know, even thinking, looking at our current society mm-hmm. Where we're seeing these injustices and decisions being made that are really problematic and harmful.

[00:29:12] Amanda: And it's like, right. At what point are you allowed to take actions that. I don't know, might be illegal or might be technically harmful in order to hopefully, you know, reach a better end. And I'm like, Ooh, that's it. That's a really interesting kind of moral question, the ponder. Yeah. And Daryl ultimately makes a choice, like, yeah, this is worth it.

[00:29:35] Amanda: Like it is worth it for me to both physically change who I am and go through this really painful process and then kind of morally be okay with Uhhuh some of these questionable choices because I am fully committed and believe in the cause that yeah. That the senses of Aries are promoting and that he now has taken on.

[00:29:55] Amanda: So yeah, I found that to be really compelling, a part of the story. [00:30:00] Mm-hmm. How did you feel about his relationship with Mustang? , The primary bad guy in the institute is the jackal. Mm-hmm. Who was just like wreaking havoc and also.

[00:30:11] Amanda: We find out later has like the support of all the proctors, and again, the proctors are the people who are in charge and overseeing all of this, right? Yeah. The adults in the room and they're all corrupt, honestly, but they're like backing the jackal because the jackal is the arch governor's son and they're trying to make sure that he comes out on top.

[00:30:28] Amanda: Yes. So we hear all about this Jackal Lee's so awful, blah, blah, blah. In the meantime, we see Darrell getting close to Mustang who is in house Minerva, I think. Yep. Mm-hmm. And they. To have a relationship. There seems to be something happening there, you know? Yeah. Feelings are growing. Mm-hmm. And then we find out that Mustang is the jackal sister, which is like a great twin 

[00:30:50] Kelsey: sister.

[00:30:51] Kelsey: Twin sister. Twin sister, yes. 

[00:30:53] Amanda: And so, yeah. So how did you feel about their relationship, the reveal? I'm just curious because I thought that was, I love that. [00:31:00]

[00:31:02] Kelsey: I didn't love it. I didn't love it Because , I don't know, the whole point of his arc is like he's doing everything he's doing for EO and he still has dreams about her and he still like very much loves her.

[00:31:18] Kelsey: And then there's even this point where it's like heartbreaking where he realizes. The institute has been going on longer because the institute does last quite a while. It wasn't like it was No, yeah, it's not like a week or something. 

[00:31:30] Amanda: Yeah. It's, 

[00:31:31] Kelsey: it's 

[00:31:31] Amanda: a long time. It's months and months. It's, yeah, it's months.

[00:31:34] Amanda: I'm like, it's it a whole year. I can't remember knows. It actually might be, is it, 

[00:31:38] Kelsey: it starts like when he's, the, the story starts when he's 16. Yes. And then I think he's 18 by the end of it. 

[00:31:45] Amanda: Yes. But remember, there's also a chunk of time when he is going through the carving process like that. Totally. 

[00:31:49] Kelsey: Yeah.

[00:31:49] Kelsey: Yeah. So maybe 

[00:31:50] Amanda: it's, maybe it's a year. Maybe he's at the institute for a year. It, it might be 

[00:31:53] Kelsey: a year. Yeah, it might be. I don't know. So, anyway, it just, it felt Did you feel like he was betraying EO by falling in love with Mustard? No. I [00:32:00] just, it just was weird to have that, the, both of them in like the same, I don't know, it was just, I, it felt like he was trying to push this.

[00:32:12] Kelsey: Idea of a love story, but it didn't feel genuine to me. 

[00:32:16] Amanda: Oh, like Pierce Brown, the author you mean? 

[00:32:17] Kelsey: Yes. Yeah. 

[00:32:19] Amanda: Oh, 

[00:32:20] Kelsey: I don't think it needed that. They could have been like really great, like comrades, you know? I, yeah, more equals like, rather than like, because the way that the women are treated in this society too is really fucked up and I don't feel like Mustang is ever like treated as an equal in the book.

[00:32:40] Kelsey: Yeah. Even though she's like much smarter. Yes. Oh, for sure. Yeah. She's way better than the Jackline for sure. And helps him win. And I don't understand where she's like supporting him to win it. It didn't make sense to me in that way. 

[00:32:54] Amanda: Oh, okay. It just 

[00:32:55] Kelsey: felt pushed, I guess. 

[00:32:57] Amanda: I, you know, honestly, I guess I don't completely [00:33:00] disagree with you because especially knowing that this, and I don't know if he knew this when he wrote, wrote the book, I'm assuming he did that it was gonna be a trilogy.

[00:33:07] Amanda: Oh yeah. Is that like if you know you're gonna make this into a trilogy, like you could have, like you were saying, just have them be like comrades and have a friendship. Yeah. And then maybe it blossoms into love later. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:18] Amanda: Because I do think EOS death is a really significant catalyst in this story and had absolutely a huge impact on Darrow.

[00:33:26] Amanda: And so I think that was enough in terms of like needing romance for this book is that oh, he this kinda pure undying love for his now martyred wife. Mm-hmm. So I don't, I guess I don't disagree with you actually now that I think about it. And that could have been something, because I also do love a good slow burn romance.

[00:33:41] Amanda: And so having that take its time and build and maybe the second book. Yeah. Okay. Actually, okay. Maybe there's some good points. Maybe that's some, some good points. Maybe. I agree with that. For sure. Okay. Yeah. But I did like Yeah. But now that you've also said the bit about her, because she [00:34:00] is so capable.

[00:34:01] Amanda: Yeah. Obviously like Darrell has to be the quote unquote hero. 'cause it's his story. Sure. Yeah. But it is frustrating because yeah. Once again, this is a society where even, the brightest, strongest women are still always gonna be second mm-hmm. To men in this story, but in, in, yeah.

[00:34:17] Amanda: But I, I will say, one of the things that I did like about this story and it's something Dara realizes, is that he obviously starting out thinks all gold, gold are horrible, right? Right. Mm-hmm. They're just these mm-hmm. Evil, corrupt, selfish, et cetera people. Right. But that's never true.

[00:34:35] Amanda: Right. We could never categorize any group of people mm-hmm. As just one thing. And I love that. Right. That is turned on its head once he gets to the institute, once he starts to connect with other golds and he is like, oh, you're all people too. Yes, some of you're great and some of you are awful, but no one is this monolith.

[00:34:52] Amanda: And I know it sounds like a really basic thing, but it's something that we do all the time as humans. Mm-hmm. [00:35:00] Often subconsciously. Yeah. And so I liked that, you know, Pierce Brown made a point for Dar to recognize that and then also to build these meaningful relationships with golds. Mm-hmm. Who are compassionate, who are thoughtful, who do look out for each other, who do have his back.

[00:35:17] Amanda: 'Cause also is several. Yeah. Sevres a a gold obviously. 'cause he wouldn't be there if he wasn't one. Mm-hmm. But I loved Sev who's just like this, like plucky, little oddball who has great survival skills. And and again, for those who don't know, s was like. Not the bravest or the strongest or the smartest by any means.

[00:35:36] Amanda: Mm-hmm. He's like, what are they called? I'm trying to look and because I have the summary pulled up as well, they're called like low Low Yeah. Color or low color or lows. High color. 

[00:35:45] Kelsey: Low color. Yeah. And then there's bronze, which is right under gold. Yeah. 

[00:35:50] Amanda: Yeah. So he's like a low color gold. So he's like a gold willing.

[00:35:53] Amanda: And so, you know, he's an underdog, uhhuh. And even in this, in this world of, of being gold, like there's still like [00:36:00] those with and without those who have power and those who have less power. Oh yeah. And several CREs, this whole. Group called the Howler, which you know like formed their own little band that play a significant role in helping Darrow.

[00:36:15] Amanda: Mm-hmm. And it was cool to see like, you know, the underdog celebrated as well. Yeah. I mean obviously Darrow started off as an underdog too, but I really, I liked several a lot. I liked his story. And it reminds I, 

[00:36:27] Kelsey: oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, no. I was gonna change it. So I was just say really 

[00:36:30] Amanda: quickly, it reminded me a little bit of the books that you like, like

[00:36:34] Amanda: fourth wing where like you have this protagonist who's like weak and isn't as strong as the other folks and has struggles Yeah. But , is still plucky and intelligent and you know, can mm-hmm. Figure a way around things. And several kind of reminded me of that character type I guess.

[00:36:48] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[00:36:49] Amanda: Okay. Yeah, so anyhow, go ahead with what you were gonna say. 

[00:36:52] Kelsey: I really like pact and I was really sad that he died. It forgot about was so awful. Mm-hmm. And also [00:37:00] like he. This is something I wanna get into. You get into conversation with you. Okay. But just like the understanding of why the what he did worked for his people.

[00:37:13] Kelsey: So thinking about Pax, he had this undying like love for him Really? Mm-hmm. And wanted to protect him. And when you say him, you 

[00:37:21] Amanda: mean Darrow, right? 

[00:37:22] Kelsey: Darrow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wanted to protect Darrow and he does with his life. Mm-hmm. Like what? Mm-hmm. And this is all due to the fact that when it wasn't Titus, it was another awful person.

[00:37:36] Kelsey: Okay. Dang it. There's lot of awful people. I can't remember who it was. So Titus. Yeah. Titus ends up like Yeah. Being this really awful, um mm-hmm. Leader and mm-hmm. Beats and rapes women and like Yeah. It's bad. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really bad. Are you talking about Tactus? Maybe? Yeah. But then Titus is murdered because everyone votes that he's gonna die.

[00:37:59] Kelsey: He [00:38:00] deserves to die for what he did. Yeah. And then so Tactus? I think so. I think that's who it is. Okay. He doesn't wanna be part, or he try, he attempts to rape one of the women. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:13] Kelsey: And he Darrow is trying to figure out how to make these people follow him mm-hmm. In a way where they want to be doing good at the same time.

[00:38:23] Kelsey: Yeah. You know, and that we're not gonna lose ourselves in Yes. This game type of deal. Yeah. And so what he ends up doing is tactus, they want to murder him, and he gives him what is it called? He just, he just, he, he allows grace. Okay. Instead. Mm-hmm. But he whips tactus. Oh yes. Like 20 times, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:38:48] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. But then. And I don't think I caught all of it, but then Darrow has Pax whip him 25 times. He initially is like, Tactus, you're gonna whip [00:39:00] me. And then Tactus isn't strong enough. He does it like five times or something. And then here comes Pax trying to start in at six and he is like, start over.

[00:39:09] Kelsey: And it's like this whole thing. And this is when the whole group is like, oh, we are a hundred percent behind Darrow. Mm-hmm. And I was curious what your thoughts were about that and like why psychologically, like why? Yeah. Is that the thing that worked? 

[00:39:24] Amanda: I wish I could answer that for you because I didn't really.

[00:39:29] Amanda: Make sense to me either. Okay. Like I get the approach with tactic and it's like you're, he's still being punished, but in a way that's like mm-hmm. Merciful. 'cause you're not killing him. Merciful. Yeah. Yeah. Right. He's like learning like, yeah. Don't go around raping people. That's bad. Right. I don't understand the point of him being whipped and I, I, I don't know.

[00:39:50] Amanda: I wish I had a better, like 

[00:39:53] Kelsey: Yeah. I just, like, I wanna be able to dive into that and understand the psychology of that. Yeah. Like what did Pierce [00:40:00] Brown, like, what was his intention with that and was there some psychological like, research done around this? Yeah, 

[00:40:08] Amanda: because 

[00:40:09] Kelsey: I'm like, , 

[00:40:09] Amanda: I don't know if it's like trying to show I'm one of you and I've also made mistakes, you know, 'cause he obviously, or not mistakes, but just like done horrible things in this institute too, or if.

[00:40:20] Amanda: I, I don't know. I truly don't. 

[00:40:22] Kelsey: Yeah, because in the end he also was like anytime one of you does something horrible, yeah, this is what's gonna happen to me. 

[00:40:32] Amanda: Oh, so then maybe that's right. So then maybe it's more of just like getting people to realize that their actions impact more than just themselves and the other person or persons they're directly involved with.

[00:40:44] Amanda: It affects all of us. Like we're all connected Uhhuh, like, so this idea of so, so that, I forgot about that. So, yeah, so I think there is that element of solidarity, because it's also one of those things where like, you know, are you willing to lay down your life for somebody else, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:40:57] Amanda: Right. Are you willing to take a bullet for your [00:41:00] brother? And so I think it ties into that psychology. So if you're willing to do that, are you also willing to risk. Them being harmed by you choosing to do something that's problematic. Right. And so it gives them pause. I think Uhhuh, but yeah. No. Okay. I for, I forgot he said that.

[00:41:14] Amanda: So yeah, I think that is it. Yeah, I think that's the, that's the thing. Yeah. Is just being mindful that your actions are never done, you know, in a vacuum. Like there are ripple effects. Mm-hmm. And if we are a unit, everything that somebody says or does within this unit is going to have an impact on us to some degree.

[00:41:33] Amanda: Mm-hmm. Whether it's good or bad. Mm-hmm. , And also if you're a leader, right, you have to take responsibility for the folks you're leading, right? Yeah. Whether it's as like a teacher or a head of an organization or a CEO. Like ultimately if you're at the top, right, like you do have to ultimately take responsibility for what goes down.

[00:41:53] Amanda: Yeah. Even if you're not the person who did it. Mm-hmm. So, and I guess showing that 

[00:41:57] Kelsey: it, it's, he's willing to do that 

[00:41:59] Amanda: [00:42:00] Yeah. 

[00:42:00] Kelsey: As well. Yeah, 

[00:42:01] Amanda: exactly. Yeah. 

[00:42:02] Kelsey: I don't know. I was like, 

[00:42:03] Amanda: yeah, in that situation, how would I respond? 

[00:42:06] Kelsey: I 

[00:42:06] Amanda: mean, I certainly wouldn't volunteer it with crazy. Let me just, I'll just say that. But I think that is the lesson he's trying to, like, ingrain in all of them is like, yeah, we're all in this together.

[00:42:15] Amanda: And also, as your leader, I'm willing to take responsibility for your, actions and not that, how do I wanna say this? Not that individuals are not responsible for their actions, but. There's an element of that that I have to take ownership of as the leader. Mm-hmm. If that makes sense.

[00:42:32] Amanda: Mm-hmm. You know, 'cause like, yeah. Think about it as being a teacher. If like, your student makes a, you know, a poor choice that has impacts, like, even though you didn't do the thing. Mm-hmm. Like, there's some element of responsibility there. Like, oh, this was under my watch, or like, this was my classroom, or this was, you know, whatever.

[00:42:46] Amanda: Mm-hmm. So I think that's it. 

[00:42:48] Kelsey: I think. Okay. That made sense. 

[00:42:49] Amanda: I mean, that's my, my best guess. Again, listeners would love to hear your theories. 

[00:42:53] Kelsey: I know, I'm super curious what other people thought about that scene. Yeah. I completely 

[00:42:58] Amanda: forgot about that. 

[00:42:59] Kelsey: Yeah. But there was a [00:43:00] lot of those types of decisions that I'm like, oh, interesting.

[00:43:03] Kelsey: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 

[00:43:06] Amanda: Yeah. I mean, it's clear and you see this as he continues through the institute. Like, yes, Dara's doing things that are problematic, questionable, or questionable. But he also is at the same time trying to like reconfigure. The way that things are done. Right. 'Cause when he goes and frees some of the slaves in another house mm-hmm.

[00:43:25] Amanda: And he's like, you're all our equals, like, you're not beneath us. Right. Like, we're definitely working mm-hmm. Towards equality and equity and not kind of perpetuating this system of like this problematic hierarchy. Right. So he is trying to, even within the institute to get people to think about things differently.

[00:43:43] Amanda: Mm-hmm. 

You know? Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:46] Amanda: So , he's starting the work even then, even, even in the midst of it all. 'cause yeah, go ahead. 

[00:43:51] Kelsey: Yeah, there's just several things yeah. That I wanna mention. Yeah, go for it. It's like, okay. The very beginning I [00:44:00] kept like listening 'cause I, I listened to this on audio and I was like, wait, he, he's actually 16.

[00:44:08] Kelsey: I was like. He, I was like, he's 16. I was like, no. I was like, no way is he 16. What? I was like, why was that the decision to make him 16? And he has a wife and all of this Uhhuh. He was like, why? That makes sense. 

[00:44:24] Amanda: If, if you have a shorter lifespan, you're gonna get married younger. 

[00:44:27] Kelsey: Well, what was their lifespan as red?

[00:44:29] Kelsey: Not very 

[00:44:29] Amanda: long. I don't think it explicitly states it anywhere. Okay. But like, because I, they have a very, especially because like, especially as a hell diver. Yeah. Like you have such a risky occupation. Right. You, you're not, I mean, if you make it to like 45, good for you. But 

[00:44:45] Kelsey: still even 45, like, I don't know, I just was weirded out that he was 16.

[00:44:49] Kelsey: Oh, okay. Okay. At the beginning. Yeah. It was like, and also the way that he sounds, I guess also the audio. Oh, Don Dnce really sounds 

like 

[00:44:59] Kelsey: the way [00:45:00] he sounds in, like the way he talks is what, I mean, he doesn't sound like a 16-year-old, and maybe that's because of his life. Experience thus far. He's had to grow.

[00:45:09] Kelsey: Exactly. Yeah. So maybe that makes sense. Mm-hmm. But yeah, it just weirded me out. I was like, wait, he has a wife? I was like, okay. But he is 16. Okay. He is 16. Okay. So I was like, that was one thing. I was like, what? You couldn't let it go. You just kind of let it go. It just kept perseverating on it. 

Okay.

[00:45:31] Kelsey: Alright. But yep. I think the emotional immaturity is a little there because Oh yeah. Basing his like new life on EOS death is, you know, like something that. I don't know. You see in a lot of stories, but to me, it feels like an immature thing. It's impulsive for 

[00:45:51] Amanda: sure. 

[00:45:52] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[00:45:53] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:45:53] Kelsey: For a young person.

[00:45:55] Amanda: Mm-hmm. But 

[00:45:55] Kelsey: yeah. Okay. That also makes sense. 

[00:45:58] Amanda: It didn't, him being [00:46:00] 16 and being married for some reason just didn't, I didn't, I too, because again, I don't read a lot of fantasy and sci-fi, so I think when I first went into this, I'm like, , I'm gonna take it at face value. Like whatever. Yeah. Like, I don't know what this genre is all about.

[00:46:12] Amanda: So I'm like, okay, in this world folks get married when they're 16. Great. All right. I am open. 

[00:46:19] Kelsey: So the other random thing I wanted to bring up was Mustang and her background. Okay. Because she sings that song that EO gets killed for Uhhuh, and she knows that song. Mm-hmm. And it didn't seem like it was a big deal to her.

[00:46:38] Kelsey: The moment. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:40] Kelsey: But Darrow knows that that gets you killed in certain parts of the world, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I'm curious because and you can tell me or not, or allude to things or not, I don't remember because you've read the, the second and third book, and I haven't That's okay if you did, [00:47:00] but how he finds out, I think Titus ends up being a red Yes.

[00:47:05] Kelsey: He realizes Yes. Titus is a Yeah. Which is like also oh shit. Okay. Yeah. So they planted other people here. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, well, is Mustang a red? And that's my question. 

[00:47:19] Amanda: Mm. I will not answer that. Does it come 

[00:47:22] Kelsey: up, does it come up later? Potentially. I mean, 

[00:47:24] Amanda: but I mean, all I will say is that she's the jackal's twin sister .

[00:47:27] Kelsey: Okay. Okay. 

[00:47:29] Amanda: So that's, that's what, that's what she's, she's the jackal's sister . okay. I don't remember, do they, what are the le what are the lyrics of the song? 

[00:47:38] Kelsey: Oh God, I don't remember. But also I don't 

[00:47:40] Amanda: remember either. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. 

[00:47:42] Kelsey: The singing in the audiobook was, did they actually sing? 

[00:47:45] Amanda: Oh, no. Was 

[00:47:46] Kelsey: stupid.

[00:47:46] Kelsey: I hated it. I was like, God, I wish I knew how long this was so I could just skip it, because it was way longer than I thought it was gonna be. I thought it was gonna be like a few seconds, but no, it was like, like maybe a whole minute. Like, [00:48:00] I was like, is this like a freaking 

[00:48:01] Amanda: page? Yeah, because just because you're an audiobook narrator does not mean you're a singer.

[00:48:06] Kelsey: Oh, absolutely not. No. Oh, and the other interesting thing about the audiobook, which you wouldn't know, is they make him sound like he has like an English accent, but it's like Scottish or. Irish sounding.

[00:48:21] Amanda: Wait, which is it? Is it British or us? Oh, I don't know. But it's like, 

[00:48:25] Kelsey: it's like 

[00:48:26] Amanda: one of those accents somewhere 

[00:48:27] Kelsey: in the uk or like, you know, because I, I think it's Irish because Okay.

[00:48:34] Kelsey: You know that accent because also the Irish have been , this rebellious group, like fighting. Mm-hmm. Yeah, fighting British 

[00:48:41] Amanda: oppression. Yeah. 

[00:48:42] Kelsey: Yeah. Right. And so I think that's why they chose for him to have this accent, which is another interesting, like choice. Choice because it's like, okay, we're talking about all white people then, right?

[00:48:53] Kelsey: Uhhuh. Like there's not, maybe, I don't think there's any diversity in this. Well, 

[00:48:58] Amanda: I 

[00:48:59] Kelsey: mean, that's an interesting you, [00:49:00] right? Because 

[00:49:00] Amanda: Yeah, like. Your color is a color. Like, you're not like, oh, like brown or blacker, like, right, like, it's like you're pink or you're, and you, and you look pink. Like you have pink hair and pink eyes and like pink tinted skin.

[00:49:13] Amanda: Like, so, so it is like, yeah, race is not a race. But yeah, 

[00:49:16] Kelsey: it's probably, probably like how race is like identified in this book. 

[00:49:20] Amanda: Right. Essentially. But they also, the, all of these people obviously came from humans, uhhuh. And essentially what happened is like they humans went , to the moon, to Luna created this like space colony.

[00:49:35] Amanda: And from there we're launching off into the solar system and colonizing other planets. 

[00:49:39] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. And 

[00:49:40] Amanda: then the, you know, the, this upper class emerged, the golds and the silvers. Did not like having to follow orders from Earth and ended up overthrowing earth. Right. And that's kind of what happened. That's like the backstory.

[00:49:51] Amanda: Yeah. So obviously all of these people who are now purples, greens, blues, whatever, they're all originally were kind of racist as we know them, [00:50:00] but that's not really a part of this society. The racism comes in and that you're red, so like your race, quote unquote, your color is mm-hmm. The oppressed group.

[00:50:09] Amanda: Yeah. And you're discriminated against because of that. So it has obviously parallels to races. Right, right, right. Yeah. And then gold, they have 

[00:50:16] Kelsey: like gold hair, which is like blonde there skin is like gold tinted basically. Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah. Quite interesting. But basically it's like the hierarchy of like our society anyway.

[00:50:29] Kelsey: Like well, 

[00:50:29] Amanda: but also in a different way. The gold very much. And you see this all throughout this book. They very much lean into Greek mythology and Roman mythology. Oh yes, yes, yes. They basically see themselves as . Gods like the gold see themselves. Yes. They're definitely referred to as God.

[00:50:43] Amanda: Yeah. And that's how they were Yeah. Referenced and the way that they live, the way that they look and is trying to kind of Yeah. Capture this idea of , these deities just like in, in Yeah. Ancient civilization. So I thought it was interesting, I love mythology, so I liked the addition of that 

[00:50:58] Kelsey: to 

this book in a series.

[00:50:59] Kelsey: The [00:51:00] other thing that I'll say, oh shoot, I think it left my brain. Oh, okay. Okay. I got it. I got it. Okay. Was, it was interesting because they were there for 500 years mm-hmm. And the society had been there for 300 mm-hmm. On Mars. Mm-hmm. Like you would think that they would have other historical figures to talk about, but he only references real world characters, like Alexander the Great.

[00:51:27] Kelsey: And who else did he mentioned was like, see what you're saying? He was like, it would be like this person, but those were thousands of years ago, or like Sure. At least, right? Because we're way in the future. We're talking 500 just on Mars. Mars, yeah. Right. And how long was that? Beforehand?

[00:51:40] Kelsey: Right? That was interesting to me. I was like, oh, he could have come up with other people. Right? Yeah. 

[00:51:46] Amanda: That's fair. But I think also because we are reading this text, it's gonna resonate more with us versus like a made up character. We're like, well, I don't really know. This person why should be impressed by their fess versus like, oh yeah, Alexander the [00:52:00] Great.

[00:52:00] Amanda: Got it. You know? Yeah. But like, I don't know, A till of the hun or like whoever Julius Caesar, 

[00:52:07] Kelsey: that was just, yeah, it kind of took me outta the story though, because yeah, it was like, oh, those were like probably thousands of years ago. Like, yeah, yeah. So anyway. Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:52:15] Amanda: yeah. I mean, it's already thousands of years ago.

[00:52:18] Amanda: Yeah. No, I, I think that's fair. But yeah, he's definitely, I mean, he's definitely keeping in mind who his audience is and like letting that play into it. But I think also he is very much trying to again, tie this book very explicitly to ancient civilizations, right? Yeah. Even with the way that people are named, that's true.

[00:52:36] Amanda: Like all of the names come straight from like. Rome, you know? Yeah. Like ancient Rome, like Cassius, Julian, and like all of this, it's like, okay, we get it. Like yes, you're trying to resurrect this new Rome and this new kind of Roman mythology in Yeah. This world, 

[00:52:52] Kelsey: which is the other point I wanna make about this.

[00:52:55] Kelsey: Okay. Is like, this is just colonization [00:53:00] like in space. Oh yeah. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't love it for that reason because it is just like, okay, are we trying to. Fixate on, on this idea, right? We could do so much more with a different story.

[00:53:15] Kelsey: Other than colonization, you know what I mean? Like we just overdo that storyline and I'm like, okay, this is exactly what would happen though to society. Well that's, that's what my 

[00:53:25] Amanda: counterpoint is. That is like if we actually go out this is what's gonna happen, it's we're gonna colonize it in the same we colonize in place in the same place.

[00:53:32] Amanda: Yeah, exactly. So I think to that degree, it's very believable. I'm, I mean, what other books, it just annoyed me. That's all. Have you read recently that are about space colonization? 

[00:53:46] Kelsey: Well, about colonization in general? No, I 

[00:53:48] Amanda: thought, okay. Well, sure. I thought you were like talking about, I mean, again, not space specifically.

[00:53:53] Amanda: You're like, you got a lot of books in your back 

pocket. 

[00:53:57] Amanda: Yes. There are a lot of books about colonization. But again, [00:54:00] I think if you're gonna write this story about humans spreading out across the solar system, like this is the path that it would take. And we already see it, right? We already see like these billionaires hopping on their little rockets and heading off to space.

[00:54:11] Amanda: Yep. And again, if, if that's where we're going, like. If we do ultimately decide like, yeah, we wanna colonize these planets, like that is the pattern it's gonna take. It's gonna be the wealthy at the top. Mm-hmm. They're gonna get all the privilege. Everyone else is gonna be working to make this

[00:54:24] Amanda: happen for them. Yeah. And that has been the story since like the dawn of civilization, right? 

[00:54:30] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's just 

[00:54:31] Amanda: the way that unfortunately we humans seem to operate. So yes, I guess it's repetitive, but I liked it 'cause it felt very believable and not farfetched. Sure. Mm-hmm. Like, to me, like, and we've talked about this before, I personally really enjoy speculative fiction.

[00:54:46] Amanda: Mm-hmm. I feel like I just find it way more compelling than some other types of fantasy or sci-fi. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah. I could see some version of this potentially happening in the distant future. Right. If, if you are still around and stuff like this seems [00:55:00] very plausible. Absolutely.

[00:55:01] Kelsey: Yeah. And that's the thing is like, it just annoyed me because that's our story. Yeah. And that's what humans freaking do. Yeah. And I hope the takeaway from this is like, yeah, we just need to fix what's going on here, rather than like, oh, we're just gonna go out and colonize other places.

[00:55:18] Kelsey: Yeah. Like, come on to 

[00:55:19] Amanda: perpetuating this. Yeah. We 

[00:55:20] Kelsey: already did this with all of Earth. So can we just like, fix our society rather than trying to expand it? God, I 

[00:55:28] Amanda: know. 

[00:55:29] Kelsey: I know. Yeah. And then also just. In the state of the world and the way things are going right now, it's such a parallel with books like this.

[00:55:38] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. Because it, it is such a hierarchy. Yeah, absolutely. And that is the reality. Yeah. And people are literally dying because of the resources and things that they lack because they are mm-hmm. Of mm-hmm. Certain background. 

[00:55:49] Amanda: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like this is a parable for our times. Yeah.

[00:55:53] Amanda: Like, it's true. And you have you know, the top like 1% and all of these, mm-hmm. Billionaires, et cetera. And it's not [00:56:00] sustainable. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:56:01] Amanda: Like, and ultimately the shit's gonna hit the fan. Mm-hmm. And it's just like, when does that happen? And what does that look like? Right.

[00:56:08] Amanda: Yeah. Because, yeah, the cracks are showing up and continue to do so. But yeah. And again, I love when, especially sci-fi and fantasy, 'cause it can feel so farfetched and detached from our reality when it's very clear that you can find those parallels. And when an author. Chooses to make work that I find more meaningful because mm-hmm.

[00:56:29] Amanda: It does give us things to ponder and consider that we can apply to our lived experience versus like, oh, and there's nothing wrong with books that are just for escapism and just like, get me the heck out of here. I love books like that as well. Right. But I also love books like this where it's like, mm-hmm.

[00:56:43] Amanda: Yeah. What can I find in here that actually connects to what's happening? In our society and our world. Yeah. So I love having a mixture. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like with reading, you can't read books like this all the time, right? You need totally. You need some, I guess you need some say. You'll [00:57:00] remember me romcoms thrown in there too.

[00:57:02] Amanda: You know, 

[00:57:04] Kelsey: some beach I trickle it in. 

[00:57:05] Amanda: Amanda. Yes. Twinkle. We're gonna twinkle it in. Is that what I said earlier? That's what what you said. Yes. In a previous episode. Different. Another Kelsey. But okay. So then I guess as we're getting ready to head into our literally the best or literally the worst, what would your final recommendation well, for this book 

[00:57:24] Kelsey: be before 

[00:57:24] Amanda: you get into that?

[00:57:25] Amanda: Oh yeah, yeah. I do think 

[00:57:27] Kelsey: I am gonna continue to read the series. Oh. Because I'm curious about it. Yes. But okay. And it is such a popular book. It has over a 

[00:57:36] Amanda: 4.4 rating. Good read. So it does, I know. So 

[00:57:38] Kelsey: I am curious about it and seeing if I. Like it more than the other books, and I'm cur than this first book.

[00:57:45] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. I'm curious what you think, what's your prediction of me with the second and third book? 

[00:57:50] Amanda: Well, you're so hard, honestly, to predict. I feel like I'm just, I'm unpredictable. You're so unhinged and unpredictable and I feel like I'm always wrong. I, [00:58:00] based on your reading tastes okay. I feel like you are probably not gonna like the other two books only because again, the whole point of this trilogy is to overthrow this society, overthrow this government.

[00:58:15] Amanda: Yes. And so again, there is a fair amount of conflict and fighting. Okay. Yes. There's, you know, a lot of Yep. The world expands, which is cool. I think you might like that to get to see more of this whole Yeah. System. Mm-hmm. But I think you're gonna get annoyed with the conflict . I think you're also maybe not gonna be as.

[00:58:34] Amanda: Interested in like I was saying kind of the court intrigue and like the politicking that happens. Yeah. 

[00:58:39] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[00:58:39] Amanda: As he has to kind of get in good with the golds. Yeah. But I found it very adventure based. Like it's there, there are no trials per se, but it's like, oh, he's got like this mission and that mission and he needs to, so again, I liked it for that reason, but I could see you feeling like maybe either it's too conflict based or Yeah.

[00:58:59] Amanda: Too [00:59:00] much. Yeah. Like I was saying, wheeling and dealing and, and betrayal and if you didn't like the institute and all of that, you might not like the other, other two, but I think you should at least try the second one for sure. Okay. And that will be like the deciding factor if you wanna finish or if you're like, okay, I'm out.

[00:59:19] Amanda: Okay, bye. Yeah. Okay. Bye. But I hope you, I hope you grow to love it and by the end you're like, I'm so, like I did with aar, like Yeah, I was on the fence kind of with the first one. I was like more into it in the second one and by the third I was like, okay. Alright. 

[00:59:33] Kelsey: I think it really depends on the main character's arc.

[00:59:37] Kelsey: So, okay. So 

[00:59:37] Amanda: then let me ask you this quickly , and I'm not gonna say anything either way. Yeah. What to you would be a satisfying arc for Darrow? Like, very broadly speaking? 

[00:59:46] Kelsey: Just something similar to like Hunger Games. Okay. Where he realizes like all of this is shit, you know, like, okay.

[00:59:54] Kelsey: Something like that. You know, like, 

[00:59:56] Amanda: Where do 

[00:59:56] Kelsey: you, 

[00:59:56] Amanda: do you think that he doesn't already think that? 

[00:59:59] Kelsey: Oh, I don't, [01:00:00] I don't know. I don't know. 

[01:00:02] Amanda: Okay. 

[01:00:04] Kelsey: Because he's trying to overthrow the gold uhhuh. That's the whole point. Yeah. So what is he trying to replace the gold with? That's another question. Like, is there gonna be conflict between the Aries people and him and his idea of society?

[01:00:18] Kelsey: That would be very curious. 

[01:00:20] Amanda: Yeah. So, okay. That, so you ultimately, you you'd want him to be like, I'm over the whole thing. It's not like I just wanna replace the golds with reds or something. Yes, yes, yes. I wouldn't 

[01:00:30] Kelsey: want him to like, just replace the society. Yeah. 

[01:00:33] Amanda: Okay. Okay. Want 

[01:00:34] Kelsey: to just replace the society.

[01:00:35] Kelsey: Okay. 

[01:00:36] Amanda: All right. Well then you'll, yeah, you'll just have to keep on reading then. But yeah. So what is yours? So then what is your final recommend? Now I'm confused. What is your 

[01:00:43] Kelsey: final recommendation? Gosh, I am so going back and forth because I know there're like, it's a huge, like, it so depends on your taste, but from my perspective, yep.

[01:00:58] Kelsey: That's what we wanna hear your perspective. [01:01:00] God. 

This is so hard. This is hard. It's the longest final of recommendation 

[01:01:06] Amanda: ever.

[01:01:10] Amanda: Well, I'm just gonna say that I recommend it. Y'all, you should readly 

in 

[01:01:15] Amanda: case 

[01:01:16] Kelsey: you don't. In case that wasn't clear, I don't even know what to say. Like, I'm so conflicted. I'm gonna go with No. Okay. Okay. No. Okay. All right. Go with your gut. You wouldn't 

[01:01:25] Amanda: recommend it with I'm not hurt at all. I'm not hurt at all.

[01:01:28] Amanda: Okay. All right. Well, , Kelsey and I are definitely on opposite sides on this one. I definitely think you should read it. And this book has been compared to the Hunger Games. Mm-hmm. And I guess I made that reference earlier and it's actually gonna come up in one of the reviews I think I have.

[01:01:42] Amanda: But yeah. I, I do think if you enjoy kind of dystopian books, also like. Things that are a bit more violent, like the Hunger Games. Yeah. You might enjoy this book and I would encourage you to at least check out the first book and see, and maybe you'll end up like me and maybe you'll end up in the small minority like Kelsey.[01:02:00]

[01:02:00] Kelsey: Yeah. Ultimately, ultimately, I think I really struggle with male authors. Oh. And I, okay. Yeah. I think that's my ick about this. Okay. It's because , it's so like, and I don't wanna be stereotypical, but it feels stereotypical. Where it's like, you know, this deep hierarchy and then , it's so like masculine energy esque Mm.

[01:02:23] Kelsey: Sure. Whole thing. Sure. And like women are degraded in the book. Yeah. And like things like that. Yeah. Like there's it. So ultimately I think that's why I'm a no. Okay. Okay.

[01:02:31] Amanda: Okay. That's, that's valid. And I think that's, that can be clearly seen in the text in different ways. Yeah. But Okay. Yeah. Okay. So literally the best or literally the worst. I have got five star reviews from Good Reads. Kelsey has got one star. I've got one star reviews. Reviews, which means Kelsey, you're gonna be kicking things off for 

[01:02:47] Kelsey: us.

[01:02:48] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. So my first one is a long one, so just FYII thought it was really funny and good, so, okay. Oh boy. I cut some of it out, but I kept a lot of it. Okay. I'll skim if I ever need to. [01:03:00] Okay. Okay. This is from Amber, from Books of Amber. I started skim reading after about 200 pages because Red Rising completely failed to hold my attention.

[01:03:08] Kelsey: At the same time I wanted to get to the end because maybe I was being too judgmental and the book was going to get better. Everyone had told me that It was crazy and mind blowing. So I had to go on right wrong. I shouldn't have bothered by the end of the book, absolutely nothing had changed. Darrow was still an annoyance.

[01:03:25] Kelsey: The students were still doing stupid things. The ladies of the novel were still being ruled by the men, which by the way makes no sense for reasons. And I was still fucking bored. Darrow was an awful character At the beginning of the book, I was ready to get behind him because I thought he was going to be a Spartacus storyline going on.

[01:03:44] Kelsey: You know, one way he finds a reason to fight for the lives of oppressed. And that reason should have been his wife. But as the novel progressed, Darrow seemed to forget about EO and the cause and was more interested in talking about [01:04:00] himself. I don't really care if you are and always have been supposedly gorgeous and great at everything you do.

[01:04:07] Kelsey: Darrow, I really didn't like how Darrow was naturally the best and most gifted at everything. Mm-hmm. Yes, he was genetically modified. To be that way, but even his apparent intelligence was superior to everyone else's. And how the fuck did these Aries people know that he'd be the one? Do you think you're neo Darrow?

[01:04:27] Kelsey: Speaking of genetic modification, I would like to point out that this world building makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And I refuse. I refuse. The women in this book are mostly oppressed by the men. They are said to be weaker. Even the gold who have been genetically modified to be stronger and so should be equal with the men of the same rank.

[01:04:49] Kelsey: And rape is brought up regularly and from what fellow readers have told me, dealt with poorly. I can't comment on how it was dealt with because I wasn't paying attention. I just [01:05:00] noticed that the characters talked about it a lot. But anyway, it doesn't make sense for the women to be the weaker sex when genetic modification is possible, and it makes even less sense when it's included in this world and not commented on.

[01:05:14] Kelsey: Nobody said anything about changing the fact that men ruled the world. Okay, last couple sentences. You know, for such a dull book, red Rising gave me a lot of rage. I wouldn't recommend it unless you want to torture yourself or maybe you have nothing else to read. In which case I would suggest finding a newspaper because you will find the same asinine characters and shitty plot in the daily news.

[01:05:39] Amanda: Damn, Amber. Oh, I know. That was intense. I feel like her book review should have been called Rage Rising because she clearly has a lot Oh, that's so good to get off of her chest. I get her point about like, yeah, if you're gonna genetically modify people, then why aren't they all the same?

[01:05:54] Amanda: But again, like if this actually happened, our. [01:06:00] Society continues to be quite . Patriarchal. And whoever developed the technology was probably some dude or some dude was like funding it. And of course is gonna ensure, right, that like, I don't know, that separation of the sexes is maintained even with genetic.

[01:06:17] Amanda: Like that does not surprise me at all. Yeah. I didn't find it alarming or disconcerting or ridiculous. I'm like, no, that tracks like, 

[01:06:23] Kelsey: yeah. And I guess if you go back to the intent of the author. Yeah. Was he intentional about that? Yeah. Like he wanted it to reflect actual society. Yeah. Because he could have made so many more like Sure.

[01:06:35] Kelsey: Creative like Yeah. Whatever. Decisions. Yeah. Decisions. If he wanted it to be different 

[01:06:41] Amanda: because I feel like he wanted it to be more reflective of like. Our world. I don't know, I, I haven't read like interviews with him or anything, but it seems that way. 'cause even the pinks, which are the pleasure class, the pleasure color, right?

[01:06:52] Amanda: Right. It's largely women. Right. There are men in it too, but it's largely women who are meant to offer comfort and pleasure and everything to other [01:07:00] people. So it's even the color pink. Right. Which is associated with women and femininity, so. Mm-hmm. I think it was not an accident, but I cannot confirm that 'cause I haven't Yeah.

[01:07:09] Amanda: Read any of his interviews. Okay. So my first five star which is not that long is from Ashley. Devo Deo. Okay. Every single time I read this book, it blows my mind all over again. I just love it so bloody damn much. It's been years since I read it and I had forgotten how absolutely brilliant this book is.

[01:07:31] Amanda: It is brutal and epic and keeps your heart pounding from the very beginning, right until the end. All the characters are amazing and you can't help but become attached to them. Darrow is a phenomenal main character, but my favorite character by far would absolutely have to be several. He is wild and amazing and hilarious, and I just couldn't get enough of him.

[01:07:52] Amanda: I just couldn't get enough of this book as a whole, and I'm absolutely dying to reread the rest of the series after the epic way the book ended. [01:08:00] Seriously, I cannot say enough good things about Red Rising. I freaking love this book. I, yeah, I feel like she just took everything I needed to say. 

[01:08:08] Kelsey: Basically.

[01:08:09] Kelsey: You said that. 

[01:08:10] Amanda: I did. I definitely did. I even mentioned several. 

[01:08:13] Kelsey: Yes, exactly. So funny. Well, since I had a really long first review, Uhhuh, I have an extremely for short second review. Okay. 

[01:08:24] Amanda: Take it away. 

[01:08:25] Kelsey: This is from ri,

[01:08:27] Kelsey: deleting this from my brain. 

[01:08:31] Amanda: Oh, I saw that one. 

[01:08:34] Kelsey: I thought I had to, you know, don't, don't. Yeah. Ri 

[01:08:37] Amanda: there's so much good and you should keep reading this series. Okay. Next five star from Sabrina. I. I reread this book to dive back into the series, and I have to say it was a fantastic experience this time.

[01:08:52] Amanda: I listened to the audiobook and it was absolutely perfect. I highly recommend it not for Kelsey. Apparently, I highly recommend it. [01:09:00] For anyone looking to immerse themselves in this gripping story, the narrative follows, Darrow, a young man seeking vengeance against the gold who took his wife from him.

[01:09:08] Amanda: Darrow is a brilliantly developed character. You truly feel his pain and anger throughout the story. His journey through the oppressive society is filled with emotional depth and it's easy to become invested in his quest for revenge. The way the book can concludes left me eagerly anticipating the sequels.

[01:09:25] Amanda: The secondary characters were also engaging and equally enjoyable, each adding depth to the story. I can't wait to see more of them in the next installment. Overall, this was the kind of read I wanted thrilling. Intense and incredibly rewarding. I loved every moment of it. Perfect. In all the ways I hoped for it is, it's all those things.

[01:09:44] Amanda: It's thrilling and intense up. And the revenge story. Oh, it's so good. 

[01:09:49] Kelsey: Yes. The next audio book. So Red Rising, I was able to get it on Libby. Okay. Like right away. Oh, oh wow. Okay. So I'm able to just get it the next one, so we'll see. Oh, fantastic. We'll see [01:10:00] when I start it. Yeah. Even with all my hate I have to know.

[01:10:03] Kelsey: I love it. 

[01:10:04] Amanda: I feel like it's literally you're having Myar experience and I love it. Finally. 

[01:10:09] Kelsey: Okay. Which is so interesting because normally I'm into these books. I know way more than, you know. That's, I'm saying 

[01:10:14] Amanda: it's like such a reversal for us. I'm here for it. 

[01:10:17] Kelsey: Yeah. So strange. Okay, this next one is from AMS Reads.

[01:10:23] Kelsey: I think it's ams. Ams. Okay. Am. Alright, so look, red Rising isn't for me right now. Five years ago, I would have been all over it, considering I love both Divergent and the Hunger Games. Not in that order. However, I am not enjoying Red Rising currently. I also didn't want to DNF this or put it on hold purely because I wanted my first DNF to come later in the year I failed.

[01:10:49] Kelsey: I mean, I may pick this up again. I don't eliminate it. Oh, I don't eliminate that. My dystopia phase has passed and I am not enjoying the writing style of this book. It reads like a [01:11:00] try hard take on Hunger games. I'm sure it gets better and one day I may come back to it, but for now this is sitting on my DNF pile because of how I had to force myself to read it.

Hmm. 

[01:11:13] Kelsey: None of my other buddy readers have really finished or started the book, but be sure to check out the reviews Al. Yeah, 

[01:11:20] Amanda: interesting. I mean, I guess if you're not someone who's into dystopian fiction, you, you might not enjoy it, but it's not like, well, maybe it is dystopian in the way that like totally is.

[01:11:30] Amanda: Maybe Hunger Games is Yeah. But maybe not the way that diversion is. But I guess, and diversion, they have the colors too, right? Because you can get like, like, not the colors, but like Yeah, but not colors and like the, how you look, but like the colors of the, the different whatever groups. I know I'm like trying to 

[01:11:45] Kelsey: remember the word for them.

[01:11:47] Kelsey: Like, I don't 

[01:11:49] Amanda: remember. Factions. Factions. There you go. You have a great memory. But I guess I could see that, but it's funny 'cause my next review also mentions the hungry games. So much so I know. [01:12:00] So this is from Gavin. It's pretty short. This was fantastic. Easily the best new book I've read in ages.

[01:12:06] Amanda: I loved everything about it. The writing was melancholic and poetic. The story was complex and utterly engaging. The characters had depth, both the good ones and the bad ones. My only complaint is that this book was too short. I could have read more from this world. There are more I've seen this book compared to the Hunger Games.

[01:12:24] Amanda: And while I do see the similarities, I think Red Rising is a vastly superior book. It easy to rate this five stars. Absolutely. It's definitely better than the Hunger Games for sure. Whoa. In my opinion. Yeah, I know, I know. Those are fighting words. I love the hunger games. Yeah. Amanda. But I love Red Rising more.

[01:12:39] Amanda: Abs. But I guess again, it also depends on like your age. If you're like 12 then Hunger Games is, I wouldn't, I mean you can read Red Rising if you're 12, but like Yeah, this is like the adult version of Hunger Games. The Hunger Games, I think. So it's more, it's more brutal and there's no rape in the Hunger Games, which is good.

[01:12:58] Amanda: Yeah, it felt [01:13:00] more adult to me. You're welcome to disagree, but it feels more adult than the Hunger Games 

[01:13:05] Kelsey: maybe. 

[01:13:06] Amanda: Yeah. 

[01:13:06] Kelsey: God, I don't know. 

[01:13:09] Amanda: But although Sunrise Sunrise on Sunrise on the reaping was pretty brutal, the sad think Suzanne Collins has gotten more grizzly with her.

[01:13:16] Kelsey: Yeah. For absolutely. For sure. Which makes sense though for I feel like it would be more brutal in like the past, you know what I mean? Like, they're just coming up with different ways to be more creative in there. Killing. I feel 

[01:13:30] Amanda: like. No, I feel like it would get more brutal as it went.

[01:13:33] Amanda: Is, is that what you're saying as well? No, 

[01:13:35] Kelsey: no. I'm saying the opposite. I feel like the earlier years, yeah, it would've just been like brute force kind of thing, you know? Oh, sure. And that's kind of more what it is, but like even 

[01:13:44] Amanda: with what's his face? Amper getting eaten by squirrels. Like that was technology that wasn't just brute force.

[01:13:49] Amanda: Yeah. Like those were the, 

[01:13:51] Kelsey: I don't know. 

[01:13:51] Amanda: Yeah. Anyhow. Alright. Take it away. You've got one more. Keep go on this 

[01:13:55] Kelsey: tangent for a while. I know. Okay. My last review is from [01:14:00] Terrence. I didn't connect or empathize with anything in Red Rising. A lot of events happen that should have had my heart beating faster and my energy level.

[01:14:10] Kelsey: Rising in order to read late into the night or very early in the morning. What actually happened is I kept finding excuses not to pick up the book, like watching shows. I recorded on my DVR and hadn't watched in weeks. I was even doing household chores in my free time to avoid reading this book, I couldn't get into the story thanks to info dumps awkward use of first person point of view on interesting characters and telling rather than showing

[01:14:39] Kelsey: it's safe to say Red Rising clearly is not for me. 

[01:14:44] Amanda: Okay. Also. When was that review written? Because I'm like, who is probably a long time ago who is still like recording shows on their DBR? Well, but these books came out 

[01:14:55] Kelsey: a long, long time ago. They 

[01:14:56] Amanda: did. They did, but most of my long ago ago, but 10 

[01:14:59] Kelsey: plus 

[01:14:59] Amanda: years ago for a [01:15:00] while.

[01:15:00] Amanda: Yeah. But yeah, most of my reviews I guess, were more recent than that, but, okay. Yeah. Last, the DVR last five star round pierra. Okay. Finished treating this bad boy for the third time today, and every single time it just blows my mind. The world building the language, the characters. That's all in caps.

[01:15:20] Amanda: The writing itself is just the most incredible thing I've ever experienced. I have no fault with this book except that small typo I found in the middle few chapters. This is without a doubt my all time favorite book with books I love. I can generally find a fault or two, but in this book, there are none.

[01:15:37] Amanda: You can consider me an official howler. Oh my god. It totally reads like one of your books, like one of your book reviews. Like it's so great. I love it, but it's like when 

[01:15:51] Kelsey: the women are being like, I'm absolutely feral for Resand. Exactly. That's what this is. 

[01:15:58] Amanda: So, yeah. So listeners [01:16:00] especially for this book because clearly I'm deeply invested.

[01:16:03] Amanda: I really want to hear your thoughts. So yeah, if you are not on social, I'm curious, one thing you should do before Thursday of this week, 'cause this is coming out on a Monday. Yes. You need to make sure to follow us so you can vote Hell, hell yeah. And let us know if you're a team lit it or team quit it for this one because I need all the support and just to like reiterate the fact that this is the best book and everyone should let it.

[01:16:25] Amanda: So make sure to hop on our socials. And Kelsey, do you wanna tell folks once again what 

[01:16:30] Kelsey: our socials are? So, did you already talk about reviews? I'm sorry. I feel like I did at the beginning, 

[01:16:36] Amanda: but not right now. 

[01:16:36] Kelsey: Okay. I thought I just, I was thinking about the puppy that's under my legs. 'cause I was gonna introduce, gosh, she just got a little puck.

Oh my gosh, guys, he's so 

[01:16:46] Kelsey: cute. I'll bring him up at the very end, but he's been, he's such a fucking chill dog. You know, I forgot he there, he's just been sleeping at my feet and he's just like, not making noise. Like, oh my God. I don't know how I found the perfect dog. You did. [01:17:00] But anyway, please do find us on socials.

[01:17:03] Kelsey: We are on Instagram at live vibes only podcast, but much more lively on TikTok. Yes. Not necessarily because of us, but because of our followers, our fan base. Yeah. Because we have a thousand followers now. Woo. And that is so amazing. And I'm so curious. By the time this one releases, where are we gonna be at?

[01:17:24] Kelsey: Hopefully 

[01:17:25] Amanda: more. 

[01:17:26] Kelsey: I Well, yes, but I'm curious if like, once you hit a thousand, you kind of exponentially go up. You know what I mean? I hope so. I, I'm curious. We'll see it. I'm curious about that. Yeah. So we post very, very regularly. Mm-hmm. Come check us out. Yeah. So TikTok, our handle is lit Vibes only podcast without the underscore.

[01:17:47] Kelsey: And then you can also find us on YouTube. Mm-hmm. Where you will see my dog in our Yes. Recording. 

Yes. 

[01:17:54] Kelsey: At Lit Vibes only podcast. And let me grab him. 

[01:17:56] Amanda: Yes. And you'll also be, doesn't have a name yet. He, you'll [01:18:00] also be seeing him on our social. So just like one other reason to come follow us so that you can see him in those posts there.

[01:18:09] Amanda: He's, he's so black. I love, he's like blend. He's, yeah, he's a black pug, so he's just like blending into 

[01:18:15] Kelsey: just like chill.

[01:18:17] Amanda: I am very excited to go over to Kelsey's house in short order and meet him in person, but he's precious. So yes, make sure to follow us.

[01:18:25] Amanda: Make sure to like, comment, follow, subscribe, rate and review. And otherwise we will see you next Monday. Yes. See you next Monday. Bye bye.