Ep. 41: Lit It or Quit It: The Frozen River by Ariel Lawhon

Join Kelsey and Amanda as they explore 'The Frozen River' by Ariel Lawhon, discussing the intriguing blend of historical fiction, mystery, and midwifery. They navigate its complex characters and plot, tackle criticisms, and ponder the accuracy of historical depictions, offering a nuanced take on this richly detailed novel.

00:00 Content Warning and Introduction

00:38 Follow Us on Social Media

02:11 Current Reads: Kelsey and Amanda

14:15 Summary of The Frozen River

21:01 Book Discussion

56:47 LITerally the Best or LITerally the Worst

01:20:34 Final Thoughts and Social Media Engagement

Follow us on TikTok & Youtube @litvibesonlypodcast and on Instagram @litvibesonly_podcast. You can also email us at litvibesonlypodcast@gmail.com We'd love to hear from you!

See you on Mondays!

Transcript

Ep. 41: Lit It or Quit It: The Frozen River

[00:00:00] Amanda: In order to make choices that are best for you, please note that this episode does contain brief mentions of rape 

Welcome to Lit Vibes Only, where we lit the shit outta books we love and hate. I'm Kelsey, the unhinged, diehard romantic and fantasy reader. And I'm Amanda, the 

[00:00:22] Amanda: insightful, thrill seeker and historical fiction nerd. Welcome back to another Lit It or Quit It episode. We're always so thrilled to have y'all with us.

[00:00:33] Amanda: Yes. So I'm gonna stay on track and not go off on a tangent quite yet. So if you have not already followed us on our socials, then you should stop and take a moment and do that. Right now we are on Instagram at Lit Vibes Only under podcast, and then we are on TikTok and YouTube at Lit Vibes Only podcast.

[00:00:56] Amanda: So make sure to follow us on one or all of those [00:01:00] platforms. We have our full length video episodes up on YouTube for you to enjoy as well. And most importantly, if you have not yet rated it, rated it rated and reviewed us. Please go do that. Mm-hmm. It's, you know, we, we keep saying this, we'll keep saying this.

[00:01:19] Amanda: It's such a help for us and truly, truly, truly takes such a minimal amount of time. You can pause this episode right now. You're already in Apple Podcast or Spotify. Yep. Or whichever major podcasting platform you use. Just click that five star button and have a little extra time. You could jot down a one or two sentence review and we would be forever grateful to you.

[00:01:40] Amanda: That can be, that can be your good deed for today. There you go. 

[00:01:46] Kelsey: Your kindness deed. Yes. 

[00:01:48] Amanda: I was gonna say pay it forward, but I feel is that, that kind of work in this context? I don't know. I dunno, either. But either way, however you wanna label it, it would mean a great deal to us and [00:02:00] it really does help a podcast, a new podcast like ours get seen, get heard, to get more folks eyes and ears on it.

[00:02:06] Amanda: And so we'd be really, really grateful to all of you for that. Otherwise, thanks for being here. We're so ex I'm, I, I'm excited for this episode because I love this book and I'm the one who chose it. 

[00:02:17] Kelsey: I dunno how excited Kelsey is, but I'm excited to hear. I know. It's fun because we never we text a little bit about the books a little bit, but we try not to spoil like our feelings about the book.

[00:02:29] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. A responsive beforehand to make this really authentic and so yeah, that's fun. 

[00:02:36] Amanda: I feel like when we first started, we used to send a lot more detailed feedback and responses and that absolutely we pulled back from doing that. And I like it better because I enjoy in the moment hearing what you think and either being like, yeah, so, so distraught or thrilled that you loved it.

[00:02:51] Amanda: But Kelsey, 

[00:02:53] Kelsey: whatcha are you reading right now? Ooh okay. So I just finished mother [00:03:00] of Death and Dawn, which is the final by Clarissa broadband. And she is like one of my new favorite fantasy authors. Oh my God. Mm-hmm. It was so good. What does that last name sound familiar? What is she most popular for?

[00:03:16] Kelsey: I've read her books, her other books like, what is it? The Serpent and the Oh, wings of Night or something? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I was like somewhere. I know, I've heard that. And then this series, the first book is the Daughter of No Worlds. 

[00:03:32] Amanda: Okay. I've 

[00:03:32] Kelsey: heard of that. So yeah. I will likely have us read this book.

[00:03:37] Kelsey: Okay. I'm so excited about it. I loved the ending. It was so good, so, so good. So this 

[00:03:43] Amanda: is the last book in this series, or? Mm-hmm. Okay. 

[00:03:47] Kelsey: Yeah. So I will likely have us read that at some point. Okay. I think you might like it, it's like aspects of it, because I think similar to Sarah J Mass mm-hmm.

[00:03:56] Kelsey: She's a good writer. Okay. And [00:04:00] yeah, I think it's just, I think it's well done. 

[00:04:02] Amanda: Okay. And how many books are there? 

[00:04:04] Kelsey: And this, there's three. Oh, that's not bad. Okay. 

[00:04:06] Amanda: So just a trilogy. 

[00:04:07] Kelsey: All right. Yeah. And I don't think there's like any follow up books or anything. 

[00:04:12] Amanda: Okay. So it's done and dusted.

[00:04:13] Amanda: Okay. Yeah. Alright. I mean, the, the title is intense, like Mother of Death. Yeah. 

[00:04:20] Kelsey: And I. Honestly, I'm not sure exactly, like why, , there is a lot of destruction in things, but Okay. I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm curious, like maybe it was 

[00:04:29] Amanda: just 

[00:04:29] Kelsey: to grab the reader's attention so they pick up the book. I'm sure there's a reason, but I don't know.

[00:04:35] Kelsey: I didn't decipher that yet. I just love it. It just makes 

[00:04:39] Amanda: me think of , Gideon the ninth, that book is all about death and Riman, and you're like, no, I don't wanna read it. I'm like, and then you picked up this book. It's not about called the Mother of Death, 

[00:04:47] Kelsey: but also the cover is so fucking cool. I don't know if you can see that 

[00:04:53] Amanda: sort of, but it's a sword with 

[00:04:55] Kelsey: like flames on it and then she has red on.

[00:04:58] Kelsey: Okay.. 

[00:04:59] Amanda: Well that sounds like a very [00:05:00] Kelsey book. I, yes, I would think be open to reading at least the first book. Yeah. I am reading a very different book. Mm-hmm. I'm reading yet another memoir. We're on like a little bit of a memoir kick in my book club. So we read a memoir last month, which was, how to say, Babylon by Sophia Sinclair.

[00:05:18] Amanda: Mm-hmm. And we're sticking with another one. This one's called I Can for Folks on YouTube. I'm gonna hold up the. Book, it's called Careless People. 

Mm-hmm. See 

[00:05:27] Amanda: it by Sarah Wynn Williams. And it's essentially like an insider's, tell all book of the inner workings of Facebook. She worked, I'm trying to find her particular title.

[00:05:41] Amanda: She was like the head of global policy, global public policy at Facebook. Mm-hmm. And ended up leaving Facebook and then wrote, this tell all kind of whistleblower esque memoir and. I shouldn't be surprised because we already know Facebook has done some crazy shit.

[00:05:59] Amanda: Even if you've just [00:06:00] watched, but like that movie, the Social Network back in the day about the origins of Facebook Uhhuh, right. It's always just been a little unhinged. And this book just like ratchets that up to the nth degree, like the things that she's asked to do, the things that she observes while she's there, like the interaction she's having, the wheeling and dealing that's happening to get Facebook out to like just billions of people.

[00:06:24] Amanda: Mm-hmm. And the tactics and strategies they use to make that happen, it just leaves you feeling so disgusted and shocked. But it's a great reading. She, I wouldn't say she's a great writer. Mm-hmm. But it very much feels as though you're sitting down in her living room and she's just talking to you.

[00:06:42] Amanda: And I actually really enjoy that. It almost feels it feels very intimate in that way as if she's just. Wrote exactly how she speaks, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Okay. And, and so it's making it a breeze to get through as well, right? Because it's very accessible. Mm. But yeah, it's wild. 

[00:06:58] Kelsey: That's interesting.

[00:06:59] Kelsey: No, I [00:07:00] really haven't dived into facebook and the behind the scenes type of thing. So I don't really know much about that history. I didn't watch that movie. Oh, you didn't? Okay. 

[00:07:09] Amanda: Uhuh. Yeah, 

[00:07:10] Kelsey: I would. Is it a it's a documentary? 

[00:07:12] Amanda: No, no, no. It's an actual, like I wouldn't, I mean, it's not fictional because things happened, but Yeah.

[00:07:17] Amanda: It's okay. It's biographical and it has, I think Yeah. Justin Timberlake is in it. What? Yeah. Yeah. Damn. It's, yeah, I watched you back when it came out and you're like, oh. And the thing that's crazy is you know, when, when, or I'll speak for myself since I'm like mm-hmm. A little bit older than you.

[00:07:34] Amanda: Like Facebook, my freshman year of college was the first year that Facebook was like on all college campuses. Mm-hmm. That's when I kind of was like, oh, and everyone, I remember all of , my, essentially mentors, like older students who were helping us through orientation. They were like, get on Facebook.

[00:07:50] Amanda: It's a great way to connect with other students and mm-hmm. Really get involved in the community. And so we all got Facebook and it's just weird that I've, yeah. Kind of been around. We've been [00:08:00] around since like its inception, so 

[00:08:01] Kelsey: to speak, and watched it. Yeah. I remember getting it when I went to college 'cause it was still only college students.

Yep. Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:08] Kelsey: Were able to get on. Yeah. Yeah. When I first got on. 

[00:08:11] Amanda: Yeah. That's so wild. It's so crazy. I think the thing too about this book, I won't go into a bunch of details 'cause that's not what we're here to talk about, but , the thing that makes her kind of interesting is that she realized very early on in Facebook's growth that it was gonna become a tool.

[00:08:24] Amanda: Kind of this political tool essentially, that governments would be able to wield in certain ways. And so she was like, y'all should be thinking about this. Y'all need to be planning how you're gonna address this, how you're gonna handle it, like what your plan is. And they were like, no, it's fine.

[00:08:38] Amanda: This is really just to connect people and we're not really interested. And she's no, you need to create this position and you need to give me this job. And that's essentially what happened. And then she realized after the fact what did I get myself into slash 

[00:08:50] Kelsey: what did I create? Yeah. Well, 

[00:08:51] Amanda: So she didn't, she had nothing to do with the creation of Facebook that it's development.

[00:08:55] Amanda: That was not her thing. She literally was like, as you guys are making these decisions, I'm [00:09:00] advising you on what you should be thinking about in order Facebook, right? Yeah, yeah. 

[00:09:05] Kelsey: To make it more. What is, what is she trying to do? So she's 

[00:09:10] Amanda: basically trying to get them to think really intentionally and, and conscientiously about the impact that Facebook's gonna have so they can use it wisely versus just we're not paying attention to that at all.

[00:09:19] Amanda: People can post whatever the heck they want. Governments can use it willy-nilly, and she's no, there needs to be like regulations around this. , We need to be working with , heads of state, oh, I to really consider, like she's trying to keep them kind of somewhat, you know, on the straight and narrow and like mm-hmm.

[00:09:34] Amanda: How do we use this wisely versus Facebook just being like, the only thing we're interested in is growing our users, and that's it. And she's you need to be thinking about more than just that. Mm-hmm. Because this can be ultimately a, a tool for good also. It could be incredibly dangerous as we've seen.

[00:09:49] Kelsey: Yeah.

[00:09:49] Amanda: But 

[00:09:49] Kelsey: , I guess I always thought that Facebook did have those intentions to be not in the way that she's saying they have strategically use their platform for political [00:10:00] purposes, you know? 

[00:10:01] Amanda: Yes. But again, 'cause she was there like years ago, right? Um-huh. She's like originally, at least what they were saying, right?

[00:10:07] Amanda: And even in their inner circle, we're not concerned with that. Like we don't wanna be a political company. Mark Zuckerberg himself was like, I don't wanna go to these meetings with heads of state. Policy and politics is not my thing. I'm an engineer. I just wanna build this app and this website.

[00:10:19] Amanda: And she's no, you've created this thing. It is gonna have huge impacts on Yeah. International relations, like the geopolitical landscape. You can't just hide in your little office and make this thing. 

Right. That 

[00:10:32] Amanda: is insane in what it is capable of. 

Hmm. 

[00:10:36] Amanda: Okay. Okay. Yeah. So anyhow, it's, it's really good so far.

[00:10:38] Amanda: I'm sure I'll have more thoughts once I finish it. But yeah, it's a good book. Cool book. What was it called again? Careless people. Careless. Okay. Careless people. And I like, the other crazy thing about her is that she survived this insane shark attack when she was younger. And I'm like, your life is wild.

[00:10:52] Amanda: So random woman. Random. Like it's crazy. Damn. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. So let's back on track. Back on track. [00:11:00] Honestly, we've been doing pretty good. We've been doing pretty good. Okay. Not too 

[00:11:02] Kelsey: bad. Oh my God, my, my bang are acting so weird. They're like. Splitting 

[00:11:07] Amanda: in the middle's. Like a little split. Yeah. Yeah. A little split in the middle.

[00:11:10] Amanda: They wanna go their own way today. Okay. So I guess I'll first tell folks why I had Kelsey Reed this book, which we're discussing today, which is The Frozen River by Ariel Lahan. And I've read two of her books so far. Yeah. I had to look up her name a while ago when I first read her book, because I was like, LA is it like la lahan la la la Yeah.

[00:11:35] Amanda: That 

[00:11:35] Kelsey: would've been like, I would've, 

[00:11:36] Amanda: By Han and LA So I've read two of her books. I read this book and I read code named Helene. I was originally gonna have Kelsey Reed. Code name Helene, because Oh, yeah. Kelsey has mentioned previously that she's interested in kind of World War II era stories. True.

[00:11:50] Amanda: And that is true a World War II story, but the Frozen River , is a bit more popular than code name. Helene has a little bit more traction. And I [00:12:00] think as a, you know, as a new podcast, we wanna be really strategic with the books that we're covering. Yeah. And you know, books that people have read and are gonna want to listen to a podcast episode about.

[00:12:09] Amanda: Mm-hmm. So part of it was strategic. I, I really enjoyed the book. This was a five star read for me. I personally love biographical fiction, so fiction that is based on a particular person or event or series of events and mm-hmm. This is based on a real woman. Mm-hmm. And I just think she's a great writer as well.

[00:12:29] Amanda: I think it was well written. And I had a sneaking suspicion because of I. I don't know, there's like a murder mystery kind of at the heart of it. And so I thought , if Kelsey really wasn't into the historical thing, maybe that would be enough. Mm-hmm. To grab and maintain her attention for the duration of the book.

[00:12:44] Amanda: And there's a lot going on. This is definitely not mm-hmm. A character driven story per se. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of plot in this story, a lot of side stories. So I was like, there's gotta be something in here for her. So that is why I chose this book, Uhhuh. [00:13:00] So Kelsey drum roll was this book, I lit it or quit it for 

[00:13:07] Kelsey: you?

[00:13:08] Kelsey: Okay. I didn't hate it. You did not answer the question. Is this, I did not hate it. So it was like but I didn't love it. Okay. So it was in the realm of like soft lit it. 

[00:13:20] Amanda: Okay, well take a soft lit it. 

[00:13:21] Kelsey: Yes, yes. I take, 

[00:13:22] Amanda: I take a soft lid it over a soft quit it. Let's put it that way. So, 

[00:13:26] Kelsey: yeah, no,, it was definitely more in the realm of lit it rather than quit it for me.

[00:13:31] Kelsey: Okay. There was specific drivers Yeah. Around, I guess. 

[00:13:36] Amanda: Oh, short answer. Short answer. No, no, no. Oh, yes, yes, yes. But also I just 

[00:13:41] Kelsey: wanted to say 'cause I'm gonna get into the summary Uhhuh in just a minute. Uhhuh. Okay. We need to put our trigger warnings on Oh, for sure. On the front of this episode.

[00:13:49] Kelsey: Yes. And also, Amanda, you did not tell me any of that, so No, I didn't. I was like a bit shocked so just in the future, remember to tell me like, [00:14:00] Hey, this has, , rape or whatever in it. I'll, I 

[00:14:02] Amanda: will definitely do that. I, I definitely, I think it was some cut up in the other Yeah. But yeah, there's, there's quite, yes.

[00:14:10] Amanda: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:11] Kelsey: Yeah. It is an intense book in that way. Mm-hmm. So anyway is it the summary time? It is summary time. Okay. And then we'll get into details. I don't wanna get into get into it too much, but yeah. Just so folks are aware. Mm-hmm. And then we also have our, little snippet at the beginning mm-hmm.

[00:14:25] Kelsey: Where we have trigger warnings. Okay. So, like Amanda said, this book has so many side plots. Mm-hmm. And things going on. So I did not mention all of the characters 'cause that would've been ridiculous. I focused in on Martha Ballard, who is the main character mm-hmm. And the things that are happening to her and her family.

[00:14:51] Kelsey: And, the things that she has her hands in. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:56] Kelsey: So let's see how I do, let's see how you do. Okay. [00:15:00] All right. The book begins in 1789 with Martha Ballard delivering a baby in her town, Hollowell, Maine. After she delivers the baby, she is called to inspect a dead body. It turns out that dead man is Joshua Burgess, who has been accused of raping one of Martha's friends, Rebecca Foster in the recent months.

[00:15:21] Kelsey: Martha declares his death, a murder, but a male doctor comes to inspect the body after her, and he declares it an accident. She believes that someone is attempting to cover up the murder, and this forces Martha to uncover the truth on her own. Throughout the book, the narrative switches between timelines.

[00:15:39] Kelsey: So we have the present timeline, and then we have memories throughout Martha's life. Martha is married to Ephraim Ballard. They have six living children. Cyrus the eldest son who became mute after a serious illness. And Lucy, the oldest daughter who is married and lives across the river, and [00:16:00] Jonathan, who impregnates a local woman and marries her, Hannah and Dolly, who end up being courted by gentlemen in the town.

[00:16:08] Kelsey: And finally, young Ephraim, who is 11 years old, you find out that three of their children died from diptheria about 12 years prior to this story. back to the present timeline. Martha goes to visit Rebecca to tell her the news of one of her attackers being murdered. Rebecca tells Martha that she hopes her husband did it, and Sally Pierce the housekeeper overhears the two and eventually spreads a rumor that Rebecca's husband, Isaac Foster, murdered this man in this interaction.

[00:16:40] Kelsey: She also finds out that Rebecca is pregnant and she is taking medicine that is supposed to aid in abortion. She realizes that the baby is likely a result of the recent assault. A new doctor comes into town, Dr. Paige, and claims he can deliver babies. But the first birth he attends he [00:17:00] gives a laboring woman, LA Lana mm-hmm.

Which 

[00:17:03] Kelsey: puts her to sleep through labor. This almost kills the mother and the baby, but Martha is able to deliver the baby successfully after the woman is asleep for nine hours. Throughout labor. After this encounter, Martha has a very low opinion of Dr. Paige. And throughout the six months of the story, Dr.

[00:17:24] Kelsey: Paige ends up killing two babies. And that was just like one side story. There's a trial for the rape that Rebecca names both Joshua Burgess and Joseph North of committing. Since Joshua is already dead, Joseph North is the only one that faces trial, but ends up being acquitted for the crime.

[00:17:45] Kelsey: This is devastating to Rebecca, her husband, and even Martha as she fully believes the assault occurred throughout the book. Martha believes North to be behind the murder of Joshua, but she can't quite prove it. Near the end of the book, north realizes [00:18:00] that Martha has been snooping around and he goes to her home in the middle of the night searching her property.

[00:18:05] Kelsey: He confesses to having assaulted Rebecca and he attempts to assault. Martha in this scene, but in the end, she gets the ultimate revenge on the man and cuts off his penis. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:21] Kelsey: She treats his wound and her husband arrives just in time to help her and get north to a doctor North.

[00:18:28] Kelsey: Ends up living, but is sickly after the incident. The main event throughout the book is this murder mystery that she's been trying to, solve. And in the end, she finds out that it was Sam a local man who was married to May. And he murdered Joshua because he had assaulted May the same night the book began.

[00:18:53] Kelsey: And Jonathan Martha's son aided him in the murder. In the end, Martha keeps the [00:19:00] secret to herself. Ultimately what I cannot summarize well is that there are just multiple births mm-hmm. That Martha is a part of. And she really goes in depth of the struggles of a midwife back in the 17 hundreds 

mm-hmm.

And 

[00:19:17] Kelsey: what that all entails. And so this is definitely just a short summary, but there's so much more that goes so much into this book. 

Yeah. 

[00:19:24] Kelsey: That we, you know, we'll get into. Mm-hmm. 

But. 

[00:19:28] Kelsey: So anything really vital that I missed 

[00:19:31] Amanda: you think? I think you did touch on like the really big plot points. I think, again, this is probably one of those books that I would, I mean, I encourage our readers to read all of the books that we are, are doing our episodes on.

[00:19:42] Amanda: It's why we share what we're reading in advance, so you can read along with us. Yeah. But yeah, I think those were all , the main points. Because she is a midwife and because she is so enmeshed in the life of the town, as we were saying, there are lots of side stories about the women that she is helping to care for.

[00:19:58] Amanda: Mm-hmm. And you [00:20:00] know, there's a, there's a, an element of romance to this story. She's very much in love with her husband and there's a quite a bit of. Time in the plot that she's kind of just dwelling and reflecting on the ways that he's a good man. She's also, you know, Hannah and Dolly, are young women who are looking, you know, to, to find a partner.

[00:20:14] Amanda: And so there's that element. She's trying to play matchmaker with Cyrus, who's an older son, who's mute with a woman in the town. And so there's all of these side, like again, side relationships, side stories. Mm-hmm. It is very much, I'm trying to think of another story that would be a good comparison in that it's very much like , a village story.

[00:20:33] Amanda: It's about, you know, this community. , Even though Martha's the protagonist, it really touches on so many lives. It makes me think of the play. Our town. I don't know if you're familiar with that mm-hmm. But it's a quite a popular play and yeah. It's really just telling the life of this town and their interactions and relationships with each other.

[00:20:50] Amanda: Mm-hmm. Like the goings on of the town. Yeah. But yeah, , that was a very succinct summary and I think if you hit all of the, the key points, I guess the only, well, we'll get to it. We'll get to it in the discussion [00:21:00] actually. Okay. So, what were some things, 'cause there must have been at least a handful since you gave it a soft lit it that you uhhuh did enjoy about this book.

[00:21:10] Kelsey: Yeah, so, I. I did enjoy, the murder mystery aspect. I was curious like what happened. Mm-hmm. Which I wanna understand with historical fiction, I never know what is real and what's not, and what's fabricated and, yeah. Well, 

[00:21:26] Amanda: let me pause you really 

[00:21:26] Kelsey: quickly. Did you read the 

[00:21:27] Amanda: author's note at the end of the book?

[00:21:29] Amanda: I did, 

[00:21:29] Kelsey: yeah. 

[00:21:30] Amanda: Okay. 'cause she does dive into that. 

[00:21:32] Kelsey: Yeah. But , I don't know whether or not Sam was the real person that killed him or was that just a fabrication? I So you, you know, I mean what you're saying. Yeah. No one knows. I think, I don't think that murder was Saul. She just put that mm-hmm.

[00:21:47] Kelsey: In there to solve a murder. Solve the murder. But I know Joseph North ends up living on mm-hmm. And like it's likely a fabrication that she cut off his penis. Yes. But yeah, so like those kinds of [00:22:00] things, like all the small details, you know, I know that Martha was real. Yeah. I know that she, she did have a really amazing track record mm-hmm.

[00:22:07] Kelsey: Of never losing a mother, I think. Right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which is just wild. Mm-hmm. From fact in the day, like she knew what she was fucking doing. Mm-hmm. And yeah, that was really intriguing, like the midwife midwifery aspect. I was intrigued by Yeah. How this woman was like caretaking the women of this town.

[00:22:27] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. And also like holding a lot of their secrets too. Mm-hmm. She knew so much of of what was going on mm-hmm. In the town. Mm-hmm. And also it was intriguing to hear about how she had to go to court and tell the paternity of the children. Mm-hmm. That was interesting.

[00:22:48] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. Just an interesting aspect. Mm-hmm. And then of course, like all of the elements of what it was like back then where a woman couldn't be present in court without [00:23:00] their husband or father. Oh,

[00:23:01] Amanda: testify? Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:03] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. , So yeah. I enjoyed the majority of those the aspects of the book.

[00:23:08] Kelsey: I didn't I don't have serious criticism for the book. Okay. It was just like, yeah, it was a good, it was a good story. 

[00:23:16] Amanda: It sounds like it was, you know, obviously not like a genre you normally read, so it didn't have some of the elements that you're probably. Looking for in a book usually.

[00:23:24] Amanda: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But there wasn't anything actively horrible about it that you were like, this is, I can't stand it. Yeah. That's what it sounds like. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Some of 

[00:23:31] Kelsey: the books that I read of yours, I'm like, oh, dear. Yes. God, 

[00:23:35] Amanda: yes. And it doesn't sound like you had any of those moments with this book, which is, I'll take it like that's a positive.

[00:23:42] Amanda: One of the things you said about it was just interesting getting to know a little more about midwifery and like kind of what life would've looked like in the late 17 hundreds in this town. And for me, , that is why I enjoy historical fiction. It's not even so much about oh, this crazy historical event that happened.

[00:23:58] Amanda: I am just truly [00:24:00] curious about how everyday people lived their lives in a different place in time. You know, what their priorities were, what their day-to-day routines look like, what their belief systems were, how they interacted with each other. Mm-hmm. Like that to me, I just find fascinating and it's one reason why I love both historical fiction and historical nonfiction.

[00:24:20] Amanda: And yeah. Prior to reading this book, I didn't really know that much about being a midwife and mm-hmm. I think the one thing that really stood out to me was the contrast between Dr. Page and Martha. Mm-hmm. And how you have this schooled man, this educated man from Harvard, right? Yeah. Who's supposed to be this prestigious doctor who has studied extensively the human body and a right all of this.

[00:24:47] Amanda: And he is so woefully. Unequipped to care for kind of women in general, but espec, especially women and childbirth. Yeah. And you know, I think, I mean thankfully things have [00:25:00] changed over time eventually, but just women's healthcare and women's reproductive healthcare, I think still for a lot of, 

still, yeah, still 

[00:25:08] Amanda: now there's so many issues.

[00:25:10] Amanda: Yeah. Around just lack of knowledge, lack of information, lack of research, uhhuh and that sexism pervades to today, right into 2025? Oh, absolutely. Yes. And so looking. Looking at this story and like looking at this woman, right? Martha, who has years and years of experience knows the female body inside out, knows childbearing inside and out.

[00:25:30] Amanda: Mm-hmm. And how all of her wisdom is dismissed out of hand just because she doesn't have a medical degree, even though in reality she is so much more well equipped as we see mm-hmm. In this story to help these women. And I really liked that the book highlighted that, and I liked the fact, which we didn't talk about in the summary.

[00:25:49] Amanda: There is a black woman named, simply named Doctor. Doctor Yeah. Who lives on the fringes of society. She kind of comes in and out of the story and does her own thing, but mm-hmm. She also is another woman who [00:26:00] very much understands the female body, understands like home remedies and natural remedies, and can use those effectively.

[00:26:06] Amanda: Yeah. To help people when they're ill. And I love that celebration of female wisdom and intuition and Yeah. Women just helping other women in a society that was really not built. to care for us in that way. 

[00:26:20] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:21] Amanda: So I really loved that a lot 

[00:26:23] Kelsey: about this book. Yeah, I see the, that's the other thing that, the thing that bothers me about historical fiction is just I wanna know which details are true and which are not.

[00:26:34] Kelsey: Because of the Dr. Page thing, I'm like, okay, every person I think was real in this book. Or do you know? 

[00:26:41] Amanda: That I, I don't know. I dunno if 

[00:26:43] Kelsey: every single character was real. I don't. Yeah. And so, I wanna know if Dr. Page was real and if he actually delivered babies and killed them. Well, so I 

[00:26:50] Amanda: think I, I, I under That's what I wanna know.

[00:26:52] Amanda: I understand your, your, like obsession with one of two. That, but I think my like counter for that would be, even if Dr. [00:27:00] Page, he specifically didn't exist, doctors like him Absolutely did. Right? Sure. And he is based on, you know, so many men Sure. Medical doctors who did those things. So I'm like, I dunno if it does, I dunno if it fully matters if this particular guy, it matters to me.

[00:27:16] Amanda: What? That's my beef with historical fiction. But, but why, why does that matter so much to 

[00:27:21] Kelsey: you? Because I feel like there's this thin line that historical fiction writers walk 

mm-hmm. 

[00:27:28] Kelsey: Where they're allowed to make their, the details up. In their, oh my God. They're allowed to, you know, create things uhhuh in their books, Uhhuh, but they never have to fully be transparent of like exactly what is real and what is not.

[00:27:46] Kelsey: And so there's a. Line where it's okay, well now people, are they gonna be believing that this was real? Which aspects are, you know what I mean? 

[00:27:55] Amanda: Yeah, no, I, I hear you. And I think, again, like that was the purpose of the author's [00:28:00] note, and that's why most historical, fiction books have author's note to delineate so that people aren't going off thinking, oh, so and so did X, Y, or ZI think.

[00:28:07] Amanda: But it still doesn't tell you. Yeah, I was gonna say what it sounds like for you, you want like a, a detailed breakdown Absolutely. Of every single character. Yeah. Every single word they uttered, every choice they made. And I think that would be quite taxing to have to do that. So I think , the point of the author note, well, what was made up, 

[00:28:24] Kelsey: that's what I wanna know.

[00:28:26] Amanda: I mean, I, I dunno, I think, or based on research, 

[00:28:29] Kelsey: I think Lahan 

[00:28:30] Amanda: in the author's note, did a good job in my opinion, it was really 

[00:28:33] Kelsey: short. 

[00:28:34] Amanda: I felt, but I think I got a good sense of what was real and what wasn't and what happened to the real people named in this book. And you know, who wasn't necessarily an actual character.

[00:28:43] Amanda: Yeah. I thought she did a good job of outlining that from my recollections of reading the author's note. But I agree in that I do think historical fiction authors have a responsibility to be really transparent when they're writing this. These stories, especially if it's biographical fiction, like this is where it's based on a person [00:29:00] to be crystal clear.

[00:29:00] Amanda: Here's where I fabricated and filled in the gaps. 'cause we don't know, and here's things that we have kind of hard cold evidence to say this actually happened. Mm-hmm. Because, yeah, I think there's something sketchy about getting to take someone's life who actually lived and retelling it in a way that.

[00:29:19] Amanda: Yeah. Might not be accurate, might be problematic, et cetera. Like that, that seems wrong to me. 'cause that is not your story to tell in that way, if that makes sense. Yeah. I think that's 

[00:29:28] Kelsey: my biggest beef with historical fiction. Yeah. And I enjoyed the book itself mm-hmm. And the storytelling. Mm-hmm. But yeah, that's the one thing that I, just every time I read a historical fiction, I'm like wanting to know the details and I like, dive into it and okay.

[00:29:41] Kelsey: What had actually happened. 

[00:29:42] Amanda: Yeah. I mean, I do that I usually will hop on the internet after. And I do my own research too on topic because I'm like super fascinated. I do that with I don't know, with like movies too that are based on real people. Yeah. I always get on hop on the internet after.

[00:29:53] Amanda: So I think it's a good thing. It's encouraging people to do their own research and learn more. 

[00:29:56] Kelsey: One of my big examples of that too is you recently [00:30:00] saw six the performance. Yes. The musical. The musical. Mm-hmm. And after that musical, I was like, oh my God, what is real? And I wanted to, I same everything.

[00:30:09] Kelsey: I dove deep into it. Same. I rewatched, what is that,? Ann Bolens like mm-hmm. With, what is her name? Oh my God. Oh, the movie, you mean the most recent one? Yeah. Yeah. It was just, that one was really good, but like a lot of it is like not real. Yeah. And I was like, dang. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So I was just like, I don't know, I just, I enjoy doing that.

[00:30:30] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. But also it irks me. At the same time, 

[00:30:32] Amanda: maybe I think you might enjoy historical fiction more. That's not biographical fiction. Like I think you might enjoy historical fiction where it's it's not based on a real person. It really is just based, it has a historical on setting. Yeah, sure. Right.

[00:30:44] Amanda: And so I feel like then you wouldn't be so caught up in did this person actually say this to this person on the ninth day of, you know, March in 63? Don't know those things. You know, like you might just get to enjoy. Experiencing that time period, quote unquote, versus getting caught up in, you know, [00:31:00] this 

[00:31:00] Kelsey: particular person.

[00:31:01] Kelsey: I guess the thing that I liked about the book, you know, is that she did keep a diary, Martha. Yes. And she's well known midwife. Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:12] Amanda: Yep. 

[00:31:13] Kelsey: Um mm-hmm. Because she kept a diary mm-hmm. Which was like unheard of mm-hmm. In that time. Mm-hmm. And it was just so crazy to think like most women back then mm-hmm.

[00:31:22] Kelsey: They were not literate. Mm-hmm. And the only reason that she was able to read and write was because her husband taught her. Mm-hmm. And I was just like, God. That's wild. 

[00:31:31] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:31:31] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[00:31:32] Amanda: Yeah. I mean, it dives so much into the oppression of women, but, and you see it in so many ways. All of the restrictions that were placed on women and the limitations on.

[00:31:47] Amanda: On living, whether it had to do with business, whether it had to do with legal matters, , whether it had to do with, you know, owning property and having money or mm-hmm. Or having kids and, you know, like literally [00:32:00] every aspect of their lives were so heavily restricted. And I think mm-hmm. This book did a really good job of highlighting all of those things and at the same time showing ways in which the women during that time, especially women like Martha, found kind of these small but significant ways to fight back and use the limited power that they did have to assert some sort of 

mm-hmm.

[00:32:22] Amanda: Autonomy in a world that, again, was very much not designed for them in any meaningful way. Mm-hmm. And so I appreciated that a lot. Yeah, it was also a bit of a distressing book because you see these women trapped in these situations and you just wanna be like, ah, I just want. Yeah. I, one, I wanted the men in this book to step up in ways that, again, were not culturally appropriate at the time, but I'm just like, how is this okay?

[00:32:52] Amanda: Like, how can you, I don't know, just be so passive when you know women are telling you these certain things or [00:33:00] when women are trying to advocate for themselves or mm-hmm. Et cetera, and to just be complicit in their complete mm-hmm. And total oppression. Yeah. And again, I know this is not a revolutionary statement, it's just, it's sometimes just having to watch it happen and unfold.

Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:15] Amanda: And again, knowing that even now in 2025, like a lot of, oh, I was like green 2024. Yeah. What, God, it's definitely 2025 Kelsey. Yeah. That a lot of these kind of behaviors and ways of thinking are still present. They might be a bit more coded. They might be ahuh under the surface. Under the surface, but they're still driving so many of the choices that are being made.

[00:33:39] Amanda: Whether we look at, you know, choices being made on large scale, like in our current administration or just even in smaller mm-hmm. Male female interactions on a regular basis. Those ways of thinking have not just been eradicated. They're still unfortunately very present. 

[00:33:52] Kelsey: Yeah. And it's still an issue if the woman is, this is just like a side note.

[00:33:56] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. If the woman is the breadwinner of the house mm-hmm. [00:34:00] Like it's seen as an issue still. Like it's not just normalized. Yeah. And like things like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's like a mm-hmm. A something that has come from essentially these times Yeah. And has stuck through. Yeah. Our consciousness.

[00:34:14] Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah. And has lasted throughout time. I know. And also I was actually surprised that the rape case mm-hmm. Actually went to trial. I know. I was surprised too. Mm-hmm. And I, I don't know if that was a fabrication or what, but mm-hmm. It made sense that it was also changed to attempted rape.

[00:34:34] Kelsey: Um mm-hmm. It lessened and then eventually he was acquitted completely of the crime. Yeah. And yeah, it's just wild thinking about that's actually still the case like today. Mm-hmm. You know, like men Yeah. It's often go without any consequences. Yeah. Or. Rape. 

[00:34:55] Amanda: Right? Or like in this case where like she ultimately is accused, she's accused of being like a [00:35:00] fornicator, right?

[00:35:00] Amanda: Where again, oh yes, the victim blaming I'm like, yeah, that still happens, right?

[00:35:03] Kelsey: Yeah, this 

[00:35:04] Amanda: is not like some 17 hundreds. Oh my gosh, could you believe people acted like that back then? It's yeah. 'cause 

[00:35:09] Kelsey: they still act like that. No, we see that now. 

[00:35:13] Amanda: Right? This is not, this is not shocking.

[00:35:15] Kelsey: But also I'm curious like what other men, because the way it's portrayed here is that other men you know, like Sam, he actually took action against Joshua. 

Yeah. 

[00:35:27] Kelsey: And in the moment, right? Mm-hmm. But would he have, I'm so curious about that kind of like history, you know, what would have been the consciousness back then of men seeing their women raped by another man?

[00:35:43] Kelsey: Would it have been, I don't know, would it been more acceptable or. I don't, oh, I, I mean, 

[00:35:49] Amanda: I think for two reasons that, that his actions kind of track because one, like Maine in the 17 hundreds was super puritanical, right. So very religious. Mm-hmm. And that still would've been seen as a very [00:36:00] sinful thing to do, especially with another man's wife.

[00:36:03] Amanda: Right. Because that's very like a biblical thing. Right. And I don't know, but it was really prevalent. I, I mean, I don't know how prevalent like raping other men's wives would be. I mean, I think men would often, you know, obviously have sex with their wives that was not consensual. 'Cause they're like, you're my property.

[00:36:20] Amanda: Yeah. Uhhuh. I mean, I, and again, I don't know how common it was, like guys were running around doing that. But I, I do think because of the puritanical thing and because women were seen as men's property. Mm-hmm. Like I could see a guy being very possessive over his wife or whoever he was with and being like, potentially, yeah, nobody touches her but me.

[00:36:35] Amanda: Right. And so for me, that didn't seem. I don't know like out of the ordinary or didn't track. 'cause I could see them using their justification, like their mindset back in that day to validate and affirm those actions. Yeah. Just wasn't, makes, I 

[00:36:51] Kelsey: don't know, I just wasn't sure. But then the other thing, oh man.

[00:36:56] Kelsey: Something that you just brought up, I forgot. [00:37:00] Okay. It was just about you. What? Okay. It was just about the Puritan thing, but yeah. Oh, no. In the author's note, she shared a statistic Oh, okay. Of like how often women were assaulted mm-hmm. Or how often they had children outta wedlock.

[00:37:19] Kelsey: I can't remember the numbers she said. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But she said it was similar to like today. Mm-hmm. And how. That, you know, that hasn't changed, but, 

yeah. But 

[00:37:28] Kelsey: yeah, I think some of the criticism I saw in the one star reviews were around that, and like, how so many of the women in this story, 'cause it's this snapshot of history, right?

[00:37:39] Kelsey: Yeah. And it's a snapshot of this town and world where it's showing oh, all of these women are being raped and all of these women are also having sex out of wedlock. Mm-hmm. And men. Mm-hmm. And it's is that. A true representation of what was going on then. 

[00:37:54] Amanda: Yeah. And who, like it's a small sample set, right?

[00:37:57] Amanda: Yeah. , This one small town in Maine in the 17 [00:38:00] hundreds. That's not indicative of what was happening across the country at that time. And obviously the United States was a lot smaller at that time. But yeah, I think that's important to keep in mind. Like you can't take this book mm-hmm.

[00:38:09] Amanda: Like with any book, right. And be like, oh, this is representative of the entire you know Yeah. The entire demographic of the United States. It was definitely 

[00:38:15] Kelsey: like. For storytelling. Yeah. You know, but I 

[00:38:18] Amanda: mean purposes, but also the idea of having kids out of wedlock I think does track because one, there was not really any birth control and uhhuh, so it would be very easy, right.

[00:38:28] Amanda: For folks to be like, oh, we just had a little rumble in the not a rumble. That sounds like a fight. Like a little, a little, what is the word I'm look tumble in the hay. I don't know what I'm trying to say.

[00:38:40] Kelsey: I think some of them literally were 

[00:38:42] Amanda: tumbling in the hay. Yes. Yes. Literally. 'cause I used to go up to the hay loft and you know, get it done.

[00:38:47] Amanda: But so I think that I think tracks and you know, having a really quick rushed marriage to kind of cover that up. I think that kind of just tracks with the times in general. Even more so because again, [00:39:00] guys were given free reign to hit up whoever, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it was very difficult for a woman to resist or again, claim rape or whatever it might be.

[00:39:06] Amanda: Mm-hmm. So I think that. That I think makes sense. That wouldn't be mm-hmm. That wouldn't surprise me if that was a high percentage. Mm-hmm. Which is, you know, again, ironic when you have , a society that's supposed to be, again, so puritanical and you know, these like churchgoing, God-fearing people and behind closed doors, like all sorts of craziness is going on.

[00:39:23] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:24] Amanda: Which again, we can still see that today, right. In religious circles. Yeah. So, again,

[00:39:27] Kelsey: the thing I think, I don't know, I was curious about the mm-hmm. They mentioned the wabanaki several times 

mm-hmm. 

[00:39:35] Kelsey: And how Rebecca Foster has like a relationship with mm-hmm. The tribe or some of its peoples.

Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:44] Kelsey: And so does doctor. Mm-hmm. The French woman. Mm-hmm. The French doctor. And then North in the end, , he states it as one of his reasons for just being able to rape Rebecca and being mad at her for having a [00:40:00] relationship with the Wabanaki 'cause they've mm-hmm. Fought so hard to get them out of town.

[00:40:04] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, I thought it was important to put in, but I'm also curious about she didn't make, I, I think it would've been more likely that the majority of town would've thought like North 

[00:40:19] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:40:20] Kelsey: Rather than it just kind of being north and just Joshua Burgess. 

Yeah. 

[00:40:26] Kelsey: I think even Martha probably would've not, you know, would've been a person that would've, like the majority of people anyway, just would've not had positive thoughts or relations with the native.

[00:40:39] Kelsey: Or indigenous folks in that time period. 

[00:40:42] Amanda: Yeah. Yes. And also there were people who did, right. Who disagreed with the ways that these white settlers were coming in and behaving and interacting and killing and massacring like the indigenous folks. There were people who have strong relations with them.

[00:40:56] Amanda: I don't, it wasn't the norm, I don't think. 

[00:40:57] Kelsey: Yeah. I don't think it was the norm, but it, [00:41:00]

[00:41:00] Amanda: but there were, and we have like stories of that, like documentation of folks who did have positive relationships with indigenous folks and we're trying to work with them. Right. And I don't remember, 'cause it's been a minute since I read this book and I don't know, I don't know if she mentions in her journal.

[00:41:16] Amanda: I mean, it's not really a, people think of her di it's not really a diary. It's really just oh, like this person had a baby today and this, you know, I don't, it 

[00:41:22] Kelsey: was a diary from back then, I guess, but just a diary for Yeah. It's more like 

[00:41:25] Amanda: a what a, a daily recollection. Yeah. This is what happened today versus these are my inner thoughts and ponderings.

[00:41:31] Amanda: Which is why Ariel had to, you know, make up a lot. Totally. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:35] Amanda: So I don't know if that would give us any indication what her relations were with indigenous folks, but I do feel like mm-hmm. Because a lot of midwives, and even like doctor, like you mentioned,, the French women mm-hmm.

[00:41:46] Amanda: We're relying on a lot of the same natural remedies as indigenous folks were as well. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:54] Amanda: Logically it would make sense, you know, to have a relationship with them in terms of we're both healers and using [00:42:00] these things to help others, but yeah. Yeah. I definitely wouldn't say it was the norm.

[00:42:04] Amanda: Yeah, for sure. And I think we have a lot of history to back that up 

[00:42:08] Kelsey: Uhhuh. Yeah. So anyway, I just wanted to point that out too. 

[00:42:12] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:42:13] Kelsey: About it. 

[00:42:14] Amanda: Were there other things? I know you said there weren't like any glaring oh my God, I hate this. But were there other things about the book that you didn't like since we've talked about some of 

[00:42:23] Kelsey: the positives?

[00:42:24] Kelsey: Oh my gosh. , No, I don't think so. Okay. Okay. But I did wanna touch on North's attempted assault of Martha. Mm-hmm. And like how that happened. It took me like a second to realize what had happened and I was like. Oh my God. And I was listening to, I was like, oh my God was like walking around the house because I was cleaning.

[00:42:45] Kelsey: And I was like, what? She just laughing and I was laughing and I was like, this is so amazing. 

[00:42:54] Amanda: It's, it's perfect. 

[00:42:56] Kelsey: I mean, it's yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. And while like in [00:43:00] reality, you know, that probably didn't happen. It was just like, yeah, that makes sense. This r*pist gets what he deserves, you know? Yeah.

[00:43:07] Kelsey: Yeah. I thought it was a great choice. I personally, I was, I was shocked. Like 

[00:43:11] Amanda: you were, but I was like, I, I thought that was a very satisfying Yes. Yes. And then just castrate that. Oh my 

[00:43:19] Kelsey: god. Do you remember the husband actually brought the penis to Rebecca? Did he? I don't even remember that.

[00:43:27] Kelsey: Yes. And then she throws it in the fire. She's what the fuck? Like, why did you bring this to me? But I forgot about that. Yeah. No, that happened. Well, that happened in the book. Yeah. Yeah. That's wild. That was so shocking. I don't know if I've been so shocked. Mm-hmm. It's been a while since I've been that shocked.

[00:43:48] Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:43:49] Amanda: It's so interesting though I grew up in a really like religious Christian households and know a lot about like the Bible, et cetera. And so you think about an eye for an eye and that whole kind of Old Testament justice.

[00:43:59] Amanda: Yeah. [00:44:00] Which, you know, I think was very fairly pervasive again in a puritanical time like this in the 17 hundreds. Mm-hmm. And so I would feel like people in this time period. If, well, if they valued women I could see them be like, yeah, that's the punishment if you're accused of raping a woman, like you get your penis out.

[00:44:16] Amanda: Yeah. Especially if you're a serial rapist. Right. And I have done this, my God, multiple times. Oh my God, yes. Like I, I could see that tracking with yeah, you keep stealing stuff, we're gonna chop off one of your hands, or whatever, you know? Mm-hmm. So in some ways I was like, yeah, that also just kind of mm-hmm.

[00:44:31] Amanda: Feels very, like Old Testament justice and kind of fits. 

[00:44:34] Kelsey: Yeah. You know, there's a lot of indigenous history where it's, it is like that where, oh, the community comes together. This is like old stuff. But yeah. It also sometimes happens still. But only when the community is like super tight knit and mm-hmm.

[00:44:51] Kelsey: Still follows those like traditions, but Yeah. If someone creates harm within the community, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. They pay for it like, in various [00:45:00] ways. Yeah. And that could be like beaten or, you know. 

[00:45:03] Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. You know, 

[00:45:05] Kelsey: so that's definitely something that tracks throughout history. I think it would 

[00:45:08] Amanda: definitely dissuade people from r*ping if they just knew that they were gonna get, their appendage chopped off.

[00:45:15] Amanda: Yeah. Or effective means of dis dis dis persuasion that, is that a word? Yeah. Yes. We're gonna, you would know better than me. Me, you know what listeners, we're gonna just, it's a word dis persuasion. I'm making it a word if it's not a word. 

[00:45:29] Kelsey: But yeah, , like you said, I, I thought that was very satisfying end for North.

[00:45:33] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. And then also the fact that like, all these rumors came up about him like having illnesses because he has to have a cushion under him of that was hilarious. I loved that as well. Yeah. And then he, just because of the shame, he would never tell anybody. Never. That's why it's even better. 

[00:45:49] Amanda: Yeah.

[00:45:49] Amanda: Yeah. Because he has to like, deal with it in silence and can't even this is what she did. Yeah. Well, okay, so my question for you then, 'cause one of the reasons why I chose this book Uhhuh is because [00:46:00] of Martha and Re's relationship, like granted this is not a rom-com, it's not even a historical romance, but like their relationship does figure pretty prominently in this story.

[00:46:10] Amanda: And she often, like I said, spend some time kind of mm-hmm. Dwelling on her feelings for him. So I don't know, did that do anything for you, I guess is what I'm asking? Or were you just nah, I have did that element of romance because I was like, maybe Kelsey will like this book a little bit more 'cause it does have a bit more romance in the books.

[00:46:26] Amanda: Oh my God, romance in this book versus the ones I usually make read.

[00:46:30] Kelsey: Well, I don't know. The women had more romance 

[00:46:32] Amanda: oh yeah, that's true. But, I guess in this story though, this was like a healthy. A relationship, whereas like in the women, she just goes through a series of like tragic, 

[00:46:43] Kelsey: horrible, horrible relationship.

[00:46:45] Kelsey: But this was like, oh, this is a sweet yeah, I, it

[00:46:50] Kelsey: like it was me, like it was fine. Okay. Okay. It was fine. Like it was cute. See mm-hmm. Yeah, it was fine. Okay. It didn't like, I don't know, I don't know if it was necessary. [00:47:00] It didn't make you like the book anymore though. No. Or any less. Okay. Okay. No, and I guess, you know, it was good to have that balance of like, all of these horrible men and mm-hmm.

[00:47:09] Kelsey: Her relationship with her own husband. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like that probably was part of the reasoning that Yeah. It was placed like not all meant or put in there. Mm-hmm. But yeah, like , it was a sweet thing and I don't know. I am curious. Yeah. Again, going back to. How historically accurate it could have been.

[00:47:29] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. I'm just curious about those things. Yeah. But he did protect her in ways because part of what we haven't mentioned yet is that in this story mm-hmm. Is it Ariel? 

[00:47:39] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:47:39] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. Ariel chose to make Martha a victim of rape. 

[00:47:44] Amanda: Mm-hmm. Oh, yes. We haven't talked about that.

[00:47:46] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:47:46] Kelsey: And she mentioned yeah, this was like her own creation making versus historical fact. But in that storyline she was raped and then I believe she was pregnant. Right. [00:48:00] Or the possibility of pregnancy was like looming. And so I. E Fram married Martha. 

[00:48:08] Amanda: Yeah. I mean, it was also just this idea that, she was gonna be this shamed woman and her marriage prospects would've been like slim to none.

Yeah. 

[00:48:15] Amanda: And so he, kind of saves her from a life of, of shame by marrying her. It was very much like a let me marry you and make a honest woman out of you. Mm-hmm. For sure. Yeah. So there 

[00:48:24] Kelsey: was like a level of protection there from him, which I don't know, a lot of men would have done like back in the day.

[00:48:31] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I was curious about that. Yeah. But but yeah, it just seemed you know, a sweet loving relationship. Yeah. With how many children did they have? Fucking 10, A nine? It was crazy. Yeah, it was crazy. Yeah. No. Yeah, I think it's nine. But I can't remember, did she have any miscarriages or stillbirths?

[00:48:48] Kelsey: I don't think she, 

oh God. 

[00:48:50] Kelsey: Ooh. I don't know. 

[00:48:51] Amanda: I know she has like the three who died from diptheria and then the six living. Yeah. So yes. I mean, but, but it would make sense if she 

[00:48:56] Kelsey: had at least a miscarriage or two, somewhere in their race, especially given the time period. I [00:49:00] just can't remember if she detailed that or not.

[00:49:02] Kelsey: Yeah. Because 10 is like in my mind, but I can't remember why. It might, might 

[00:49:06] Amanda: be Right. There might. Yeah. 

[00:49:07] Kelsey: But yeah, you're right. Those three that died from diptheria. Mm-hmm. And oh my gosh. That, that scene in, out of itself, the recalling of that, like that was a tense,

mm-hmm. And then.

[00:49:17] Kelsey: Diptheria, what do we know about diptheria now? Like I, I haven't studied much of it, but like she mentioned how the parents didn't get sick, but all the children did. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:26] Kelsey: And then Cyrus lost his voice mm-hmm. After that. Yeah. And that also was my understanding is Ariel's creative license there.

[00:49:35] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. Because , the record says that Cyrus never married. Mm-hmm. Which is really uncommon for men. Mm-hmm. So she kind of assumed, or Yeah. You know, knowing the times he likely had something going on, Yeah. So sort would've would less desirable for marriage. Yeah, exactly. And so, mm-hmm. Oh my God.

[00:49:54] Kelsey: I'm having a squirrel moment. There's two, I'm having a total squirrel moment. I could see there's literal [00:50:00] squirrels outside my window and they're like, on the roof of the house next to us, and they're just running across. One is drinking water from the like. What are the gutters? Oh, the 

[00:50:10] Amanda: gutter.

[00:50:10] Amanda: Oh my gosh. That's hilarious. All right. We're having an A DHD break so Kelsey can observe the squirrels on the neighboring. Oh, they're so cute. My God. That's hilarious. They're still there. Anyhow yes. The scene where she literally has to watch her children die, ugh. Is absolutely gut-wrenching. Yeah. And again, another part of womanhood and motherhood from, and again, right.

[00:50:35] Amanda: Obviously women today are still, are in situations where that happens with childhood illnesses, et cetera, accidents, all of these things. But that scene in particular, just being so helpless. Mm-hmm. And knowing that all of your best efforts, all of your remedies, especially as a healer and a midwife she was like, mm-hmm.

[00:50:52] Amanda: There's nothing else I can do in this moment to save my kids, and they're basically dying in my arms. Mm-hmm. And multiple three kids all in one go. [00:51:00] Yeah. How 

[00:51:00] Kelsey: do you, how do you recover from that? , Like she expressed in the book, you don't? Yeah. 

[00:51:07] Amanda: Like how do you just, 

[00:51:08] Kelsey: they're always with you and move forward.

[00:51:10] Kelsey: Yeah. You know, but the fact that you have six other children to care for too. Yeah. At the same time. Yeah. That's just awful. 

[00:51:18] Amanda: Ugh. Yeah. You just one death would just completely devastate you three. Mm-hmm. And you just have to keep waking up in the morning, putting one foot in front of the other and showing up for your other kids and you're like, oh God.

[00:51:30] Amanda: But yeah, that definitely got me in that book.

[00:51:32] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. 

[00:51:33] Amanda: But I did like the creative license that she took and having Cyrus, like she's playing some, Martha essentially plays matchmaker between Cyrus and there's Sarah, I think is her name. Is it Sarah? Yeah. Sarah. Mm-hmm. Who's kind of like, there's a lot of gossip around Sarah in the town.

[00:51:48] Amanda: Mm-hmm. She's a bit of an outcast woman and so she's, 'cause she has a 

[00:51:51] Kelsey: baby. 'cause she 

[00:51:52] Amanda: has a baby and. And so I, I did enjoy that little storyline of her like trying to play matchmaker, trying to play matchmaker. 

[00:51:59] Kelsey: Yeah. And [00:52:00] eventually Sarah's baby daddy mm-hmm. Shows up, shows back up. Yeah. And no one believed her Yeah.

[00:52:07] Kelsey: That he would. Yeah. And that's Henry. Yeah. But yeah. And it seemed like Sarah and Henry would be able to have a pretty prosperous life Yeah. Owning Yeah. 

[00:52:16] Amanda: To buys the general store. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:52:17] Kelsey: Owning the general store. Yeah. So, I outcome, good outcome for her. 

[00:52:21] Amanda: Mm-hmm. I really quickly, I wanted to go back to the point you made about Raim, being a good guy. A good man. Yeah. And you were like, I wonder how historically accurate that is. But I always love when authors do things like that. 'cause I think it's really easy to. Paint with broad strokes and be like, everyone was this way back then, or everybody thought this. Mm-hmm. And that's never true, right?

[00:52:40] Amanda: Mm-hmm. There's always exceptions. There's always people who buck the system and, and do what's right, . And so I think it's always important to have those reminders in the text. And so I'm actually really glad that she wrote a character like Ephraim or I guess he's, he's real on that he was married to Martha.

[00:52:53] Amanda: Mm-hmm. But the way that she portrayed him, because I think it's really easy to be like, oh my gosh, every single [00:53:00] man, the 17 hundreds was like a horrible misogynist Yeah. Mis out here. Like whatever. Mm-hmm. It's no, of course it's not true. 

Mm-hmm. And 

[00:53:06] Amanda: again, we have evidence to support that and so, yeah.

[00:53:09] Amanda: I appreciate that. 'cause it can be, especially as a woman reading this book, you're just like, ah. 

Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:16] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. And I 

[00:53:17] Amanda: think it's important to keep that in mind too. 

[00:53:19] Kelsey: Yeah. I mean, . While Rim is probably like way over here on the scale, there's also like Isaac Foster. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then Henry who comes back for Sarah.

[00:53:28] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then Sam, who protects his wife from mm-hmm. Her rapist. And Jonathan who ends up marrying the woman he got pregnant. Oh, Jonathan. Yeah, he just kind of seems like the wild boy. I know. He does. 

[00:53:45] Amanda: He is a little wild child of the town, which again, I like that you kind of see these variations of men.

[00:53:50] Amanda: Mm-hmm. It's not just this cookie cutter, right. Yeah. Even, the guys that you mentioned all had different, like weaknesses and strengths and mm-hmm. Had very different relationships with the women in their [00:54:00] lives and I mm-hmm. I'm glad that she incorporated that. Right. Yeah. 

[00:54:04] Kelsey: And then on the other end, there's Dr.

[00:54:05] Kelsey: Page and then Yeah, north. North and Burgess. Josh Burgess. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of evil out there, but it's definitely balanced in this book, I think. Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:14] Amanda: Yeah, because even I don't remember his name, but basically the husband and wife who run the local tavern or whatever, like I really enjoy.

[00:54:20] Amanda: Oh yeah. I don't remember. They're little, they're like minor characters, but their relationship. Great. Is there anything else? And again, I know as always things will come up when we read the reviews that we'll wanna touch on. Oh yeah. But is there anything else big that we, I feel like we touched on at least the things I was hoping to discuss.

[00:54:37] Kelsey: Yeah, nothing okay. More super sticks out. Oh. Also like Percy, the bird. What kind of bird was it? Oh, was it a falcon or a, was it a falcon? Oh yeah. That whole story line was all, see like people there, there's so many different storylines. So many I have Percy, who are you talking about? All of this.

[00:54:56] Kelsey: And then also like Joseph North. He has a dog of some [00:55:00] kind. Yes. 

[00:55:01] Amanda: Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:01] Kelsey: I don't even know what kind of dog it is. I don't, I don't remember. It's like a bigger dog. Who he sits on Percy. Mm-hmm. To try to kill Percy. Mm-hmm. To get back at the what are they? The Ballards. Ballards? Mm-hmm. Anyway, that whole thing is wild too. Yeah. It's all just yeah. You should just read the book. It's, yeah. , It really is worth it. Even hearing us talk about it, all the small intricacies Yeah. And details. Yeah. I think it's still worth reading. 

[00:55:28] Amanda: Yeah. And even one of the things we didn't get into really in detail is just all of the courtroom drama and how oh yeah.

[00:55:34] Amanda: Whole system worked back then. And like all of the steps and procedures and again, the ways in which women were very much restricted in that process. Mm-hmm. And how things were decided and who was decided. And especially again, the United States was very, very new at this time. Time it's baby, it literally literal just been formed.

[00:55:51] Amanda: Right? Yeah. Paul Revere also is mentioned in this story 'cause there's a connection there with the Ballards. And so yeah. It really is just an [00:56:00] interesting story to see America and its inception and kind of what was happening. Yeah. In this town in Maine, as, as this country has just kind of come into being.

[00:56:10] Amanda: So even for that aspect, it's also an interesting read for lovers of history. So also, yeah, 

[00:56:16] Kelsey: there, I know, just thinking some of the judges that were involved in these cases mm-hmm. Were members who had helped write or who had had signed the Constitution.

[00:56:28] Kelsey: Like that part was interesting. It was a very small part, but it was like, oh, 

[00:56:31] Amanda: wow. 

[00:56:32] Amanda: Which makes sense. To have these leaders of this new country serving in, you know, judicial roles like throughout the colonies at this point, Uhhuh, or I guess they wouldn't be colonies anymore.

[00:56:40] Amanda: They're not the United States, but Yeah. You know what I mean? Very newly turned, very newly. Okay. Cool. But then let's, let's shift then to our literally the best or literally the worst. Oh, worst. So I'm gonna read some five star Good Reads reviews. Mm-hmm. Kelsey's gonna read some one star Good.

[00:56:58] Amanda: Reads,. Reviews to [00:57:00] expand our conversation a little bit. Yeah. Add some more voices to the mix. 

[00:57:04] Kelsey: And we will always start with the bad. Yes. The negative. Yes. So we can end with the good. Mm-hmm. So take it away. You have four, correct? Correct. Okay, cool. All right. This first one is from Tina. Okay. And said, how is this book rated so highly?

[00:57:21] Kelsey: It was so painful to read. The length, the plot, the boredom. My gosh. It was so boring. It dragged and the flashbacks were even worse. The main character was preachy and sanctimonious. Why do we care? Exactly what she writes in her journal when we just read about the events themselves. I wanted to give up so many times, but I hope the mystery would solve, be solved.

[00:57:43] Kelsey: Ugh. I'm so angry at this book. 

[00:57:46] Amanda: Dang. Wow. Very different. Very, very different reader experience. Yeah. 

[00:57:51] Kelsey: I, where do you think they're talking about her being preachy? I think just overall, 

[00:57:56] Amanda: because she is, you know, Martha is [00:58:00] displeased, you know, with the ways in which men are acting in this book. And she has no qualms about saying that.

[00:58:04] Amanda: So maybe that's what she means, where she's just like. Constantly spouting off about you shouldn't be doing this or this guy's behaving in a way that's not okay. Or her ranting and raving to her husband about what's going on, I guess. Yeah, I personally did not think that she was those things.

[00:58:18] Amanda: So 

[00:58:19] Kelsey: yeah, I 

[00:58:19] Amanda: don't 

[00:58:19] Kelsey: know. And I think the connection to the journal makes perfect sense for the story because that is where she got her information. Yeah, 

[00:58:27] Amanda: exactly. 

[00:58:28] Kelsey: No, I think that was necessary. 

[00:58:30] Amanda: Yeah. And I didn't, didn't think it was 

[00:58:31] Kelsey: super boring. No. So 

[00:58:33] Amanda: especially 'cause like we said, there was so much happening with so 

[00:58:35] Kelsey: many different people in this book.

[00:58:36] Kelsey: So much was happening what was not, 

[00:58:38] Amanda: what was not 

[00:58:38] Kelsey: maybe, and this was my wondering is like maybe this person just wasn't. Interested in the story of the midwife. Sure. Yeah. That could be it. That could be possible. And it's more that's intriguing to me. 

[00:58:49] Amanda: If this is someone who maybe like me maybe reads more thrillers or something,

[00:58:53] Amanda: oh yeah. Felt like this was more of a domestic fiction and so therefore not as titillating as yeah. Something along those lines, [00:59:00] but Okay. Well then let's do a five star. This is from Karen and she starts off with a quote from William Shakespeare, quote, truth will come to light, murder cannot be hit long unquote.

[00:59:12] Amanda: Although historical fiction, late 17 hundreds, this is based on a true story of a midwife who kept a meticulous diary of an incident that occurred in which she wanted to find justice for her time. This was not an easy task for women to do so in many ways, this is her story. The fictional story depicts a strong woman, Martha Ballard, a midwife who speaks her mind against impossible, powerful men who appear to easily get away with despicable acts.

[00:59:38] Amanda: In many ways, this was a page turning historical murder mystery that was complex and immersive. It was also insightful about women of the time creating a feeling of helplessness and awe, but mostly this was a story that put a spotlight on strong, assertive women who needed to find ways to insert themselves into a world that didn't always see them as relevant voices.

[00:59:59] Amanda: To add [01:00:00] to the reader's experience is the author's note at the end, quote, I collect people, unquote, Ariel Lahan. Yeah. Yeah, , and I think what was said here maybe ties into what the one star person was saying she does speak her mind against powerful men, and maybe that reader found that as sanctimonious and Yeah.

[01:00:18] Amanda: Which I think it's great. And I like that you mentioned the author's note because author's notes are especially important in historical fiction. All 

[01:00:27] Kelsey: right. Next. One star review for dog bites books. Oh my. Okay. Historical fiction light. It is a historical novel in that it, it set in the past, but the narrator's voice in her persona is a hundred percent 21st century.

[01:00:44] Kelsey: A modern day girl boss , plunked down in late 18th century Maine. It assumes its readers can't handle something that actually reads as 18th century. And you know what? The 18th century was wild. Much more surprising and interesting [01:01:00] than many people know. I read some reviews that question whether French kissing and so many babies were born out of wedlock were accurate in late 17 hundreds, Maine.

[01:01:09] Kelsey: LOL Of course they were. But instead of leaning into the very particular wildness and complexity that existed, then la, how do I say her name? Lahan. Lahan did the most basic thing she could and dumbed it all down. Also, way too many characters that aren't well developed on purpose to prolong the mystery.

[01:01:31] Kelsey: So I had a hard time keeping track of them, diary entries that recap what already happened in the story. I won't read another book by this author. 

[01:01:41] Amanda: Oh, dang. I mean, I guess there could be some validity and that her using side stories as a way to lengthen the overall story because mm-hmm. Yeah, the actual murder mystery didn't take that much time, I guess.

[01:01:56] Amanda: Mm-hmm. And a lot of it is turned into like courtroom proceedings, which I guess could be seen as [01:02:00] boring, but, mm-hmm. I don't know. I didn't think she dumbed it down, although. Although and I've talked about this, maybe back in like an early historical fiction episode that we did mm-hmm.

[01:02:11] Amanda: That I can't stand when historical fiction writers write characters that are very clearly 21st century characters. Yeah. The way that they act and behave and think. Yeah. And then just put them into a historical setting. And I, I didn't get that, that here, and I think there were empowered forward thinking progressive women in the 17 hundreds and the late 17 hundreds.

[01:02:32] Amanda: Mm-hmm. I, I think to be like, women wouldn't have thought that or said that. I'm like, I think you're dumbing down history by thinking that. Mm-hmm. So I don't agree with that, but I do agree that. When it does happen, it drives me crazy because I'm like, yeah, yeah. 

[01:02:44] Kelsey: I, I see it a little bit, I think.

[01:02:47] Kelsey: But not, I'd have to go back, Andre. If I was to reread this book, I would probably focus in on like Martha's perspective and just her opinion on things and mm-hmm. [01:03:00] How it might differ from now to back then. 

[01:03:04] Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:03:05] Kelsey: I think I could see it. 

[01:03:07] Amanda: I, yeah. I just, I couldn't, and I think it drives me crazy when people are like, yeah, women would've thought that way back then.

[01:03:12] Amanda: They were all just so meek and mild and just so fully beaten down by the patriarch. And I'm like, no. There were women who were resisting in all sorts of ways Sure. For centuries, right. . But, okay. My next five star is from Des the Bookworm. This is an interesting and captivating

[01:03:28] Amanda: listen on audiobook, three exclamation points, A midwife in a small town has to unravel how a man under the ice ended up dying and how he got there. She has a strong FMC with even stronger opinions, charging herself with finding the truth. She's on a journey to find a killer and unravel a mystery.

[01:03:44] Amanda: This is an incredible telling of a story inspired on true events, and the author states, 75% is true and accurate. Full of mystery, intrigue, and some suspense. I found myself walking right alongside our midwife, easily envisioning the scene due to the rich and detailed [01:04:00] descriptions. What an incredible story that gives us a look back in time.

[01:04:04] Amanda: I appreciate the accurate history entwined with the multiple stories that hitches your breath rises, your anger brings in the tears, and without a shadow of a doubt, a smile to your lips. I felt every emotion in this novel, and I know it's one I'll be thinking about long after I finished reading it.

[01:04:22] Amanda: Highly recommend you listen to or read this novel for a unique story that actually happened for the most part. I dunno if. 75% of it's accurate. I dunno if she, did she actually, yeah, I say that in the office. No, I don't. So, but I don't remember 

[01:04:35] Kelsey: seeing that percentage. And also like, how would you quantify that?

[01:04:40] Kelsey: Yeah, exactly. Are you like writing all the details down that are accurate and then, and then I don't even, all the things you, 

[01:04:47] Amanda: I dunno. Yeah, , she definitely filled in quite a bit and she definitely states that in her author's notes. So, 

smile to your lips. 

[01:04:54] Amanda: Yes. That's gonna be my new 

[01:04:55] Kelsey: phrase. A smile to your lips.

[01:04:59] Kelsey: I did not [01:05:00] cry in this book though. Did you cry? 

[01:05:02] Amanda: No I didn't. I got really emotional when her kids were dying, but I did not, I did not 

[01:05:07] Kelsey: cry. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't cry then, but yeah,, I felt that for sure, but, okay. Patty BI. I am one of a very few who did not like this book.

[01:05:20] Kelsey: It was slow. The main character, Martha, Martha, was far too feministic to be believed. For 1970. The language was too contemporary for 19, sorry, for 19 70 17. I read it backwards. That's so, oh, 1790. Okay. Oh my God. I 

[01:05:37] Amanda: was like, we did, we read the same book. 

[01:05:41] Kelsey: The language was too contemporary. The characters had little depth, and the villain was almost comical.

[01:05:48] Kelsey: The ending was ridiculous. She tried to include some mysticism with a silver fox, which fell completely flat. It's based on the real life of Martha Ballard. I wished I had read the [01:06:00] biography versus historical fiction. 

[01:06:03] Amanda: Interesting. , I forgot about the silver Fox thing. Yeah.

[01:06:05] Amanda: Uhhuh. In the end, I don't know what the point was for it. I don't that, I don't know. It just was like this little motif she wanted to slip in there. But again, I disagree with this idea that there weren't women back in the 1970s. There weren't women back in the 1790s and 1780s who were thinking these things.

[01:06:22] Amanda: I just think that's such a shallow and inaccurate, I don't know, way of thinking. Yes, the majority of women probably, were just kind of going along with things because that was all they knew. Mm-hmm. But clearly there were women who weren't and who were like taking strides to educate themselves mm-hmm.

[01:06:40] Amanda: Fighting, you know? Yeah. And again, we have stories of those women. So why is that so hard to. I don't know believe, but anyhow, and it seems 

[01:06:49] Kelsey: like people are also saying, you know, about the language itself, being contemporary. 

Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:55] Kelsey: I felt like the narrator of the audio book

[01:06:58] Kelsey: was a really great [01:07:00] choice. 

[01:07:00] Kelsey: But yeah,, it didn't read like Old World to me, you know? 

[01:07:05] Amanda: Well, well technically right, late 17 hundreds is an old world, but I agree that Yeah, the language would be, yeah. Their word choice, you know, diction would definitely have dd and I can agree to some degree, right?

[01:07:18] Amanda: It's not like mm-hmm. as late 17 hundreds as other books I've read who've really tried to like, capture that. Mm-hmm. But yeah,, she didn't come across to me as like this oh, 21st century person, but, okay. , Christina, five stars. The Frozen River is an amazing and satisfying read when I learned that it is based on the Diary of a Real midwife Martha Ballard, and that the setting is Maine where I live.

[01:07:39] Amanda: I couldn't pass it up. I'm so glad I didn't. Not only is it a very detailed account of a midwife's daily duties and hardships, but a mystery as well. The way Ariel Lahan weaves the story together with her beautiful choice of words is spellbinding. It's a work of art that I could not put down, or I should say stop listening to.

[01:07:56] Amanda: Her use of all five senses makes you feel as if you are there [01:08:00] watching the story unfold. There was never a dull moment in the book. I didn't know that midwives dealt with illness and deaths along with delivering babies. Ari Lahan gave Martha just the right amount of strength and tenderness to balance her personality and endear me to her.

[01:08:14] Amanda: There are some dark situations discussed in this book, detailed rape, murder, injury, misogyny, and bad language. If you are able to read about those things, then I recommend you read this book. I'm going to read all her books now, so yeah. I'm glad that she also incorporated like the trigger warning in there.

[01:08:30] Amanda: Yeah. Midwives did more than just birth babies, y'all. They were basically like Totally, totally. They were like the town doctor really, even though they weren't allowed to call themselves that.

[01:08:38] Kelsey: Yeah. They often did a good job thinking about the side character. I don't remember her name.

[01:08:45] Kelsey: Lydia, maybe? Joseph North's wife. Mm-hmm. Who is afflicted with migraines. Oh, the migraines, yeah. Yeah. And she's this frail little woman. Mm-hmm. That can't like Yeah. Function because of her migraines. Mm-hmm. The other thing I will say that [01:09:00] was interesting to point out was like the travel.

[01:09:03] Kelsey: For these people when they were going to like the courthouse and stuff. Mm-hmm. And then talking about the judges not wanting to be there because it was a hard, it was difficult to travel because mm-hmm. The river was still frozen. Mm-hmm. I thought that was interesting because right now I was looking at Hollowell

[01:09:20] Kelsey: it's a two and a half hour drive. So from from where to where? Oh, Boston. To to. Mm-hmm. But anyway, it would've been a long, a long haul. Yeah. Like distance, ugh. For people to travel back then, especially in the winter. God. Yeah. Okay. My final one, star review.

[01:09:41] Kelsey: Tanya, DNF. How in the world has this book received such high reviews? I love historical fiction and thought this book was right for me. Boy was I wrong. First, a midwife as the main character had me intrigued as I am a nurse and worked many years beside midwives. She [01:10:00] made her first mistake in the opening chapter in the delivery of a baby that I wondered if the author ever consulted a midwife.

[01:10:07] Kelsey: You never cut the umbilical cord until after the cord is tied off. The next thing that got under my skin was the language they speak in the modern day English, not. 1789. This was very off-putting and took a lot away from the historical fiction aspect of the book last, the way the main character speaks to others, especially men, as if she is the one in charge, in a time when women were seen as objects to own and control is not as a significant leader and investigator in a homicide.

[01:10:39] Kelsey: I felt this was Patricia Cornwell's, forensic pathologist. Kay. I don't know who these people are. Kay Ti trying to be portrayed in 1789. Do you know that book? No. Or is that a book? I don't know. I have no idea what that is or if it's like a, a tea. I don't know what that is. Maybe it's like a, I think [01:11:00] it possibly is from a book, the author and Casey Petty is the main character.

[01:11:05] Kelsey: Oh. Oh, maybe look it up. Yeah, we'll have 

[01:11:07] Amanda: to look that up for sure. I think I made her point about the cutting of the umbilical cord, et cetera. Yeah. I think also it's important to keep in mind like medical practice back then would not the same as now. Exactly. So it'd be like, well, we do this now. So obviously she doesn't know what she's doing is um mm-hmm.

[01:11:20] Amanda: Woman, this was 

[01:11:21] Kelsey: literally hundreds of 

[01:11:22] Amanda: years. 

[01:11:22] Kelsey: It's possibly what was done back then. Yeah. So I'm curious about that. That, that 

[01:11:26] Amanda: seems silly, but a lot of people really are harping on, both the language and, yeah. Her being too empowered of a woman. And I would say that in a town of this size, in this time, and if she is the prominent midwife, which we have, again, her diary to prove that she was mm-hmm.

[01:11:42] Amanda: She certainly would've found herself in multiple scenarios and situations where she did have to. Confront men and basically be the advocate for these women. So again, , I don't know. I just don't think it's that farfetched 

[01:11:53] Kelsey: and I think that's what midwives do Yeah. And have been doing. Right. Yeah.

[01:11:57] Kelsey: They're women's advocates during labor, [01:12:00] especially because women can't they're not themselves in, they're in a lot of pain, like during that time, and so they need an advocate beside them. Yeah. Right. So maybe that is like what she yeah. What she had learned throughout her life as a midwife.

[01:12:14] Amanda: It's just so weird to me that so many of these reviewers are just so adamant and this belief that all women back then were passive , and they want to believe that too. It's just it's, where is this coming from? Yeah. It's interesting. An idea. It's, yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah.

[01:12:28] Amanda: The other 

[01:12:28] Kelsey: thing to point out too is the way that she became a midwife 

mm-hmm. 

[01:12:32] Kelsey: Was from this like cranky old woman who was like, yeah. I don't know. Strong Yeah. In like her beliefs and her her profession. Mm-hmm. And she taught her everything she knew, you know? Mm-hmm. Before she died.

[01:12:46] Kelsey: Yeah. So, yeah. And no wonder she's the midwife that she is exactly. One because of her teacher, and two, because of, you know, who she is 

[01:12:52] Amanda: , And in those situations , it's often a life and death situation. So you do have to be assertive. You do have to be, you know, Uhhuh again, I 

[01:12:59] Kelsey: think it [01:13:00] tracks, but okay.

[01:13:00] Kelsey: Oh gosh. I just wanna mention, yeah. One other scene. Go for it. Where she had with doctor, and it was that very end, oh my God, we didn't talk about this at all, but Rebecca's baby and when she mm-hmm. Was in labor mm-hmm. And they had to turn the baby mm-hmm. Because it was breach. Mm-hmm. And how they turned it, like she stuck her hands inside of her mm-hmm.

[01:13:22] Kelsey: And turned the. f*cking baby. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That was wild. Mm-hmm. And then Martha was like pushing down on her belly. Mm-hmm. Oh my god. Can you imagine the pain? The pain? Yeah. And people have to go through that now too, but epidural exists. We have a lot. Exactly. But then Rebecca did not want the child and she wanted them to kill the child.

[01:13:41] Kelsey: Yeah. And of course Martha didn't do that. And she gave the baby to Sarah. I think it was, yeah. Sarah or Sally with them. Sarah. Oh yeah. Maybe it was Sal. I don't remember the one that just recently had a baby. Yeah. But anyway, yeah, yeah. That was just, it was intense. That was a wild. 

[01:13:59] Amanda: Yeah, just like the [01:14:00] history of childbirth, right?

[01:14:02] Amanda: Like over centuries and centuries, like the things that the female body one can do and the things that women have gone through Yeah. Is just absolutely bonkers. So bonkers and again, another reason why I enjoyed this book as well. 'cause I feel like, again, I, I learned a lot.

[01:14:17] Amanda: Okay. Real quick. Last five star review. Okay. This is from the lit homebody, and I love that she uses lit just like we do. Okay. So lit, 

homebody, five 

[01:14:27] Amanda: stars. This is why I love historical fiction. Not only is it educational and insightful, but it teaches you about a life so foreign to us in these modern days.

[01:14:37] Amanda: Lahan did a phenomenal job marrying a dense plot with evoking emotion beyond anything I've experienced in a book. I just finished it and I already want to listen to it again. This is a heartbreaking story, not for the faint of heart, but it's the amazing tale of an incredibly brave woman fighting for the justice, fighting for justice, I'm sorry, in her small town.

[01:14:58] Amanda: Her work as a midwife [01:15:00] was so interesting to learn about, and this is easily within my top five favorite books of 2023 ps. Jane Oppenheimer is officially my new favorite audiobook narrator. She brought the story to life. Also, please read the author's note at the end. I love a couple of folks say that I thought 

[01:15:17] Kelsey: it was a perfect person for this narrative.

[01:15:20] Kelsey: Why? Her voice just worked really well with the character. Okay. I don't know. Okay. Yeah. I, 

[01:15:30] Amanda: okay. I think I am going to, you know, part of this podcast and what we're doing is try new things and branching out and I think I am going to try and start listening to audiobooks, audio books. Mm-hmm.

[01:15:44] Amanda: Especially with summer coming, and, I'll be out on more walks and things. Okay. Just, you know, I, I, and again, I've listened to audiobooks before. I've had good experiences with them. Mm-hmm. I just, for me, I really enjoy the experience of sitting down with a book and looking at it and holding it.

[01:15:57] Amanda: But yeah, I'm like, I can also [01:16:00] little snotty books and expand and. Enjoy that aspect and the talents of people who are really good narrators. 'cause there's like this element of performance to it. Mm-hmm. And as a theater person, I really enjoy that. So yeah. I think I'm gonna do that. I also just wanna say quickly about this book before we wrap up.

[01:16:16] Amanda: This book did end up winning the Reader's Choice award on good reads for historical fiction when it came out. So again, it's, it's a very well loved, well reviewed book. Mm-hmm. I think it has like a 4.4 on good read. So, if you are, oh yeah, you're right. The fence about reading this book, don't be hop over that fence.

[01:16:33] Amanda: Go read this book. I, I think you'll enjoy it. And like the Lit homebody just said, I think it's educational and insightful. Mm-hmm. I definitely came away with some new understandings that I didn't have before. So, Kelsey, do you need to, oh, you're gonna add something? 

[01:16:47] Kelsey: One thing I, I posted this before I started reading this book, but it was book huddle.

[01:16:54] Kelsey: She's a really famous, like instagramer. I love that. Mm-hmm. She has glowing reviews for Frozen. Oh my gosh. Frozen River. Oh gosh. Loves this book. [01:17:00] Yeah. 

[01:17:00] Amanda: Yeah. She's the reason why I read it actually. I often read books that she recommends 'cause she's always recommending books and she has consistently recommended this book and I was like, okay, it's historical fiction.

[01:17:09] Amanda: I need to just read it. And yeah, really enjoyed it. 

[01:17:13] Kelsey: It was great. Does she only have one other book, or how many other books does this author have? She has six 

[01:17:17] Amanda: in total I believe. Oh, 

[01:17:17] Kelsey: okay, okay. Yeah, 

[01:17:19] Amanda: yeah. 

[01:17:19] Kelsey: Because one of the other ones is code name by Helene. 

[01:17:22] Amanda: No, code name Helene.

[01:17:23] Amanda: That's what I was gonna have you read code 

[01:17:25] Kelsey: name Helene. Yeah. Do you actually think I would like that book. 

[01:17:29] Amanda: You know, you're really hard to predict. Honestly. I, I can think of reasons why you would like it. 

[01:17:35] Kelsey: Okay. 

[01:17:35] Amanda: I will just say that I think I. Again, it's a World War II era Novel.

[01:17:41] Amanda: Yeah. It's got a strong female protagonist. She did some crazy things that I think are gonna surprise you. Mm-hmm. And that one's even more historically accurate because Nancy Wake wrote her own biography. Right. She, she has an autobiography. Okay. And that's what the book is based on. And I know you wanna know what was real and what wasn't.

[01:17:56] Amanda: Yeah. So I think you'll also like it for that reason. [01:18:00] Okay. Yeah. 

[01:18:01] Kelsey: We'll see if I pick it up on my own. On your 

[01:18:04] Amanda: own. Just like me picking up Sour J Mass books. Okay. I have 

[01:18:07] Kelsey: so many books to read right now though. Oh, 

[01:18:10] Amanda: I, I, I'm just looking at my coffee table. And then I have several on my Kindle. It's just, it's never, it's like hard for 

[01:18:16] Kelsey: me to keep up with our books.

[01:18:18] Kelsey: And did I tell you I started a book po? No. Oh my God. A book club. Yes. You told me last time. No, I was gonna say book, podcast. Wait, you have a book? Did I podcast? No. Tell me more. Kelsey. I started with a book club. Yes, yes, you did. Tell me. And it's my choice this month. Oh. And so we're doing Legend Born by Tracy Dion. And I'm very excited about it. The other women in my book club were not so excited about it. 

I was curious. 

[01:18:48] Kelsey: Go ahead. Go ahead. I was curious how you all choose your books. Is it just one person or is it like you all do it? Consent. 

[01:18:55] Amanda: So basically our process is anyone can put forward a [01:19:00] book , for voting, right?

[01:19:01] Amanda: Mm-hmm. And then we all have two votes and you can choose out of sometimes there's a list of four or five books and you can vote for two of those books. And then whichever book got the most votes is what we read. More recently though, in book club because sometimes it's easier to just decide and we're all together.

[01:19:18] Amanda: We'll have folks put forward, a couple of options, and then we'll vote in the moment. Yeah. And go forward with that. But yeah, we vote, we don't have like someone who's just this is my book for this month. Got it. Yeah. We're very democratic. 

[01:19:28] Kelsey: Yeah. We ended up, I, I don't know how it's gonna continue 'cause I'm sure we'll go through a round and then we'll be like, we all hated these other books, so let's try and find a different way.

[01:19:39] Kelsey: But one woman just hates any kind of romance. Any kind of romance. Mm-hmm. And I was like, Hmm, I'm not gonna be your person. And I was like, I actually don't know if Legend born has any romance. And I looked it up and I was like, oh, sure enough it does. But she thought this other one when the moon hatched.

[01:19:58] Kelsey: No, no, no. 

[01:19:59] Amanda: The 

[01:19:59] Kelsey: moon [01:20:00] was new or something. Yeah, ours when the Moon was Ours was ours. 

[01:20:04] Amanda: Okay. 

[01:20:04] Kelsey: And there was like some romance, but it wasn't like crazy and she's I hated it because of the romance. And I was like, oh my God, I'm not even that bad.

[01:20:13] Kelsey: I was like, I'm like, I was like, okay, we're never gonna read a book of mine. But yeah. So no romantic. That's funny. So yeah. Anyway we'll see how that goes. Okay. I'm curious to hear, see what the next book is after mine. But yeah, so, okay, we've got some in the queue, 

[01:20:30] Amanda: lots of books to read. Alright. Do you wanna do 

[01:20:32] Kelsey: socials?

[01:20:33] Kelsey: Yeah. So. Ending our episode today, please again, go click that five star. Yes, please review rating on any major podcasting platform so that our podcasts can be seen by others. And if you have time, write a few sentences of a review if you liked it. , so again, other people like you can find our podcast.

[01:20:58] Kelsey: And then come hang out [01:21:00] with us on Instagram where we are at Lit Vibes Only Underscore podcast, and on TikTok and YouTube at lit Vibes only podcast. I almost screwed that up. We are on there regularly. Mm-hmm. You know, people have started to message us even. That's great. And so that's been fun. We're having a blast.

[01:21:22] Kelsey: Yeah. Come check us out. 

[01:21:23] Amanda: Yeah. Come join us. We build our lit vibes only community. We want you to be a part of it. Awesome. Thanks Kelsey. Thank You'all for tuning in for another episode and we'll see you next Monday. See ya. Bye.