Ep. 28: Lit It or Quit It: The Women by Kristin Hannah

Join Kelsey and Amanda as they delve into Kristin Hannah's 'The Women,' exploring the untold stories of female nurses in the Vietnam War. Listen in as they clash over its portrayal of privilege, romantic subplots, and representation, while unpacking powerful themes of trauma, friendship, and historical insight.

00:00 Welcome to Lit Vibes Only

00:21 Social Media and Podcast Updates

02:29 Our Current Reads

05:45 Book Discussion: The Women by Kristin Hannah

49:12 Final Recommendations

50:54 LITerally the Best or LITerally the Worst

Follow us on TikTok & Youtube @litvibesonlypodcast and on Instagram @litvibesonly_podcast. We'd love to hear from you!

See you on Mondays!

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Lit Vibes Only
• 0:21 Social Media and Podcast Updates
• 2:29 Our Current Reads
• 5:45 Book Discussion: The Women by Kristin Hannah
• 49:12 Final Recommendations

Transcript

Ep. 28: Lit It or Quit It: The Women
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[00:00:00] 

[00:00:03] Kelsey: Welcome to Lit Vibes Only, where we lit the shit out of books we love and hate. I'm Kelsey. And I'm Amanda. 

[00:00:11] Amanda: Welcome. Welcome. We are so happy that you are here either for the first time or coming back again for more.

[00:00:18] Amanda: , we're doing our second lit it or quit it episode for the month of March. And before we get to all that, to our lovely conversation, just want to remind you guys as always, where you can find us on. Socials. So we are lit vibes only underscore podcast on Instagram, and then you can find us on both YouTube and on Tik TOK at lit vibes only podcast.

[00:00:39] Amanda: So be sure to follow us over there. Make sure to like comment, subscribe, all that good stuff. And if you're somebody who loves to like watch your podcast, we have our entire full length episodes on YouTube. And I think, are you still dropping them early? Like, yeah. Okay. You can be the first to hear these episodes.

[00:00:57] Amanda: , on Sunday Night Owl instead of [00:01:00] on Monday. , and also as always, if you have not yet taken a moment to rate and review us on Apple podcasts, on Spotify. Please take a moment to do that. , we really kind of need that support to get spread the word to get people to come and listen to our content and it really only takes two seconds.

[00:01:21] Amanda: So we would really appreciate if you could do that for us. , and we also, it's just like one more way for us to get feedback, right? To see what you guys are loving, what you would want to see from us, things that we could change or add for you. Cause this podcast is also for you guys. So let us know what you want to see in here.

[00:01:39] Kelsey: , and that kind of starts our episode off too, is like, we've changed up our beginning, , where we're not really doing our own personal chit chat, but we're talking about book topics. , but because today is, I believe it's going to take a while for us to chat about the women. Cause there's so.

[00:01:56] Kelsey: So much to talk about stuff and Amanda has no [00:02:00] idea, , how I have responded to this book. I have a sneaking suspicion. 

[00:02:05] Amanda: I saw what you gave it on Goodreads, what you rated it. And I saw a TikTok that you liked about this. And I was like, Ooh, I know what she's going to 

[00:02:13] Kelsey: say. One of the things we'll see, we'll see. 

Anyway, we have a long conversation ahead of us, I believe, and, , and so we wanted to just share what we're reading right now. Yeah. 

[00:02:24] Amanda: And that's it. We'll dive 

[00:02:25] Kelsey: right in. Yeah. So 

[00:02:26] Amanda: that's all. That's 

[00:02:28] Kelsey: all folks. 

[00:02:28] Amanda: Okay. Amanda, what are you reading right now? I am currently reading a debut novel by, , a new thriller author.

[00:02:35] Amanda: It's called, I have it right here. It's called You're Fatally Invited. I'm not sure how to pronounce her name. It looks like Ande Pliego. , so that's, I'm going to go with. I didn't have time to look up beforehand. They're correct. Oh, the correct pronunciation. , but one of my goals this year is to read more new thriller authors.

[00:02:57] Amanda: So that are new to me. So thriller authors that I haven't [00:03:00] engaged with before, whether they are brands making new or just someone, yeah, I haven't had the. wonderful opportunity to read their work. So I'm excited to check this out. I actually pre ordered that book. , it dropped in January and I got it from Elliott Bay obviously.

[00:03:14] Amanda: , and just started it last night and I posted about this on our Instagram, but there is like a Sort of map at the beginning of this book. Oh my gosh. I give you a double standards. 

[00:03:26] Kelsey: Amanda, 

[00:03:27] Amanda: I do give you a lot of shit about maps and fantasy books, but this isn't really a map it's basically, if you've ever played clue, like the board game clue, like that's what it looks like.

[00:03:37] Amanda: And it's really fun because it's a locked room mystery and it does give you like clue vibes, which I'm like all about. So I'm super excited to get further into that book. So that's what I'm reading Kelsey. What are you reading? 

[00:03:47] Kelsey: Nice. , yeah. Thank you. Please do read different, , thriller authors. We need better ones.

[00:03:53] Kelsey: Why are you saying it like that, Kofi? 

[00:03:55] Amanda: I have recommended some stellar thrillers so far. They've been 

[00:03:59] Kelsey: [00:04:00] okay. You liked Verity. Don't act like you didn't like Verity. I did like Verity, but I was, yeah, I did like Verity, but like, none of this is true is so painful. 

[00:04:08] Amanda: Okay, but that's like, 

[00:04:09] Kelsey: you like, oh, you didn't like 

[00:04:10] Amanda: Verity.

[00:04:11] Amanda: Okay. You also didn't like, I was going to say you didn't like the inmate either, really. Yeah. So, but I thought it was super twisty. I don't know what else you want from me. 

[00:04:18] Kelsey: , so I'm reading and I just started yesterday. I was on a plane. So I had plenty of time to read, , from blood and ash actually. Yeah.

[00:04:27] Kelsey: I started on my trip. So from blood and ash, I'm about halfway through. , I really like it so far and of course it's a fantasy romanticy and, , yes, and it's really fun so far. I'm enjoying it. , yeah, it's good. It's one of those ones where it's like, oh, I don't really know what's going on at the very beginning because what's the maiden, what, why, what's ascending?

[00:04:52] Kelsey: Yeah. So, , a lot of world building at first. Okay. Yeah. 

[00:04:56] Amanda: Okay. 

[00:04:56] Kelsey: Yeah. And I'm assuming 

[00:04:57] Amanda: it's a series and not a standalone. 

[00:04:59] Kelsey: I think so. [00:05:00] I actually haven't looked into it. So, , I think it is though. Okay. 

[00:05:04] Amanda: What made you choose it? Is it something you saw in like book talk or did you just like Everything I read is something I see on book 

[00:05:09] Kelsey: talk.

[00:05:11] Amanda: I don't 

[00:05:11] Kelsey: make assumptions. Almost everything. , yeah, no, it's funny because I go into books, like really not knowing much about it. , Yeah. So I'm just like, I don't know. I, it sounded good. And someone said some like one liner about it. That was like, Ooh, I probably would like that. 

[00:05:26] Amanda: And that's it. And, , sometimes that's all it takes.

[00:05:29] Kelsey: So that's how I get into them. 

[00:05:32] Amanda: We're both currently reading books that we're like super into. , and if you listeners have read either of those books or planning to let us know as always. , but we're going to dive right in. Cause like Kelsey said, I do think there's a, it's a long book. It's a long book.

[00:05:44] Amanda: It's a long book. We're gonna, we're gonna just kick things off, , with me telling y'all why I had Kelsey read this book. So, , you know, you already know that I love historical fiction. This will be the third historical fiction book [00:06:00] that I've had Kelsey read. So she's already read Horse by Geraldine Brooks, who's another one of my favorite historical fiction authors, just read Kindred last month.

[00:06:07] Amanda: And, , now we're doing the women. And I chose this book not only because it's historical fiction, but because I love Kristen Hanna. She's another one of my top historical fiction authors. , the very first book that I read by her and probably still my favorite is the Nightingale. But since the women is more recent and you know, folks are kind of chatting about this book now, I wanted to have her read the women.

[00:06:29] Amanda: And that's basically it. It's a well known book. She's a well known author. I thought that Kelsey would like it also because, you know, it is focusing, , you know, on a female protagonist. It's highlighting, , a part of history that has largely gone like unwritten and unaddressed. And I think as women, it's really important that we are, you know, taking the time to honor and celebrate and remember.

[00:06:52] Amanda: Other amazing women who often didn't get the accolades or recognitions that they should have. So I thought that was also, you know, a great thing and something we're all about on [00:07:00] this podcast. And yeah, that was essentially it. And I gave this book five stars and really truly loved it. And it made me cry at the end, maybe cry multiple times, but honestly, it was another reason.

[00:07:11] Amanda: Cause I'm like, I know Kelsey loves to cry at books. I'm like, this book is devastating. So I think she might also like it. , so I'm going to ask you a question and then you can tell us the summary. Yes. , Kelsey, was this book a lit it or quit it for you? 

[00:07:27] Kelsey: I've been going back and forth so much about this because I, , on a personal level, like I really enjoyed this book because it felt like one of my books, to be honest, because it had so much romance in it and we'll get into all those things.

[00:07:46] Kelsey: And, , that kind of storyline and like Frankie was struggling so much, like this is 

[00:07:51] Amanda: the short 

[00:07:51] Kelsey: answer. Okay. But I can't, I don't have a short answer for that reason. Like, okay. So [00:08:00] on one hand. What I'm trying to say is it's a lidded for me on one hand because personally, this is a book like I would read.

[00:08:10] Amanda: Yes. Great. 

[00:08:10] Kelsey: Love it. On the other hand. If I was thinking about it from a historical fiction lens, it is an absolute quit it. Okay. And I know exactly why. I know we're talking about it. We will get, there's layers to it, but I know. So that is my short answer, which is two answers. That was a long answer. 

[00:08:28] Amanda: I can't.

[00:08:30] Amanda: I just can't. I'm just going to say it was a lit it. I'm going to take it as a win and we're just going to run with it. So in case you didn't hear everyone, Kelsey said it was a 

[00:08:40] Kelsey: little, she just loved this book so much and we will get into this conversation. Okay. So you have a summary to do. So yes, I told Amanda, I said, okay, I had to write this out because this book was so long and I was worried too, that I would like lose.[00:09:00] 

[00:09:00] Kelsey: Track of it and yeah in my previous summaries. I have and I just I just wanted to do it justice Okay, so I will be reading off the summary. Okay. All right, the book starts off in 1966 with Frankie full name Frances McGrath with her family , in Southern California at a going away party for her brother, Finley.

[00:09:23] Kelsey: He is a Navy sailor and is being deployed to Vietnam. Frankie comes from a very wealthy family whose men always serve their country in war. During the party, Frankie sneaks off to her father's office for some reprieve. Reprieve? Am I using that? Thank you. And is looking upon the hero's wall where she wishes she could be displayed other than as a bride in her family.

[00:09:45] Kelsey: The men are expected to go to war and the women are expected to marry and have children in steps. Her brother's best friend, Rye Walsh, who is also being deployed and makes a pivotal, a very pivotal comment to Frankie saying women can be [00:10:00] heroes. After Finley is deployed, Frankie enlists as a nurse to serve the war.

[00:10:04] Kelsey: Serve in the war. Her parents are disappointed in her when all she wanted was for them to be proud after she has signed up and there is no turning back. The family learns that Finley has been killed in action. This is devastating to Frankie and her family. No matter Frankie goes through basic training and is deployed to Vietnam in 1967.

[00:10:24] Kelsey: She quickly realizes that she is ill equipped for what war requires of her. However, two other nurses, Barb and Ethel quickly befriend her and help her adapt. These three become a light, begin a lifelong friendship while serving in Vietnam. Frankie meets Dr. Jamie Callahan and she ends up working with him in the surgical unit.

[00:10:46] Kelsey: She continues to build important skills as a nurse and is pushed to her limits during the war. During her time with Jamie, they fall in love, but nothing physical ever happens with them because Jamie is married. Throughout the book, Frankie identifies herself as a [00:11:00] good girl who is not going to have an affair with a man who is married.

[00:11:03] Kelsey: On their days off, her friends and her go out to nearby villages to treat locals. At one of their visits, she meets a young girl who had been orphaned because of the war, and she is showing symptoms of PTSD and doesn't speak to people. This interaction stays with her throughout the book. , Jamie goes to Hawaii for his R& R to, , see his wife and child.

[00:11:26] Kelsey: When he returns, he's caught in crossfire and is very badly injured. Frankie helps him during this time. His time in the hospital, but he is quickly taken to another hospital because his injuries are so great. She leaves a rock with him that says, keep fighting. And on the other side says Frankie, but Frankie has been in Vietnam long enough to know that Jamie is very likely to die of his injuries, but there is little time for grieving while deployed.

[00:11:51] Kelsey: Ethel goes home after her tour, because she decides. She cannot do another year. Frankie is then deployed to a much more dangerous part of [00:12:00] Vietnam, Plei Kieu, and Barb decides she is going with her. There, she experiences a more intense version of the war as there are often bombings occurring very close to the hospital.

[00:12:11] Kelsey: During her time in Plei Kieu, , and I, do you know how to pronounce that? Is it Plei Kieu? I should have looked that up. I'm so sorry. She comes in contact with Rai again from the beginning of the book. Their connection is instantaneous, but Frankie finds out that he is engaged to someone back home.

[00:12:26] Kelsey: Frankie reenlists for another year instead of going home and is forced to take an RNR. She is, , in Hawaii and Rye is also there. He tells her he has broken off her engagement, his engagement, and they begin a relationship. Once Rye finds out that she has reenlisted for another year, he does the same. , I also want to add that they fall in love during this time or they.

[00:12:47] Kelsey: She falls in love with him during this time. Barb goes home and Frankie is by herself. She takes to drinking and smoking more the longer she stays in Vietnam. In March [00:13:00] 1969 she goes back home to California. When she returns, she is spat on. Because there has been a change in the country.

[00:13:07] Kelsey: about being at war in Vietnam. It is very much less favorable when Frankie was first deployed. Frankie struggles acclimating to her life back home after war. Her family is not proud of her service and she cannot get the help she needs from the VA or anywhere. She often hears comments like women aren't over in Vietnam.

[00:13:28] Kelsey: She feels more isolated than ever but clings to her skills as a nurse. She is not recognized for her skills gained in the Vietnam war and loses her job for using those skills. , shortly after returning, she finds out that Rye was killed in action and goes into a spiral of grief. Her relationship with her parents is strained, which furthers Frankie's isolation.

[00:13:47] Kelsey: Her friends, Barb and Ethel come to support her and eventually they all moved to Ethel's farm. , which I forgot the location of, , 

[00:13:54] Amanda: East coast, right? It's like Virginia. 

[00:13:57] Kelsey: Something like that. Frankie is stable [00:14:00] while she's there, but then returns to California. Once she finds out her mom has had a stroke, she takes care of her mom.

[00:14:06] Kelsey: And once her mom is more stable, she begins a relationship with Henry, , a man, not in the war, but someone she, , meets, , she gets pregnant and then, and they decide they will get married. Frankie then finds out that rise actually alive and was captured by the enemy all these years. , she goes to see him, but rise greeted.

[00:14:24] Kelsey: by his wife and child. When he arrives back home, she was devastated. She then has a miscarriage and breaks up with Henry. Rye and Frankie start an affair. , Rye eventually proposes to Frankie, but then Rye's wife has a baby. , and their relationship is over. Frankie spirals again and hits her lowest point where she appears to have tried to kill herself a while back.

[00:14:47] Kelsey: Frankie's. Mom gave her some pills that were supposed to help, but she became addicted and is now in an inpatient facility for addiction. Eventually Frankie gets clean and is able to get her life back [00:15:00] on track. She decides to leave California and ends up buying land in Montana. Where she builds a farm and type of sanctuary for the women of Vietnam.

[00:15:08] Kelsey: At the end of the book, Frankie and her friends go to the Vietnam Memorial uncovering her parents are there and her dad apologizes for his treatment of her. When she returned from war, they find Finley's name together and are more at peace as a family. Finally, Jamie also turns out to be alive and he references the rock she gave him.

[00:15:28] Kelsey: And that is pretty much the end of the book. 

[00:15:31] Amanda: Yeah, well done. I think that was smart to have it written out because a lot does happen. And there's like so 

[00:15:37] Kelsey: many characters. 

[00:15:38] Amanda: Yeah. And there's like little side things too that weren't mentioned that we can talk about in the discussion, but yeah, that's essentially the gist of it.

[00:15:44] Amanda: So well done. Thank you. Anything, , that you felt like What's missing or any details? , well I think one little detail is that Henry, who you mentioned very briefly, , he is actually, what, a psychiatrist and he works with individuals who have PTSD, among other things. And he's, I [00:16:00] think, one of the first people, really, that's mentioned in the book that's like, hey, people coming back from war, right, have mental health issues that need to be addressed.

[00:16:07] Amanda: And that was kind of revolutionary, I think, at that time. So that's really important. That's kind of, , a role that he plays in the story. And then I think the other thing to mention is that, , , Frankie becomes involved in various efforts to, , support the individuals who are both in the war, , and have returned home and folks who are still serving.

[00:16:25] Amanda: So she does a lot of work with, like, the, , Prisoners of war organizations, and a lot of work with the wives of those prisoners of war. And so that becomes a significant part of the story as well. And that's actually how she meets Henry, , is during, you know, one of the moments where she's doing some volunteer work, , with them.

[00:16:43] Amanda: But yeah, for the most part, I think you nailed it. Well done. , okay. So we're going to start with the good, , with the positives. So Kelsey, what were some things that you. Did really love about the women. 

[00:16:56] Kelsey: , I actually have interest in [00:17:00] knowing more about The Vietnam War in general and so the fact that it was about that I I enjoyed and you might also be surprised Amanda In college I because the world wars have been of interest for me, and I, I think I would, , enjoy books around, you know, those, those time periods.

[00:17:24] Kelsey: Oh, good 

[00:17:25] Amanda: to know. Keep that in mind. , 

[00:17:25] Kelsey: so yeah. So keep that in mind, maybe for potentially a new, , future historical ficture. Recommendations. , but yeah, I took an entire class on World War I, , while in college. Wow. And it was one of my favorite classes, , I took and, , yeah, I just learned a lot and I am interested in, , these. These periods involvement, I, let me see. People have criticisms of the writing, but I didn't think that the writing was. Like that. Okay. 

[00:17:54] Amanda: And you also mentioned earlier that you liked that it was a book that you would read because of like, you mentioned the romance in [00:18:00] it or?

[00:18:00] Kelsey: Yeah. So even though like. None of it's happy, like really in the end, , I thought the, trauma in it, I guess was like something I would normally read. , okay. And I know that people like such visceral reactions to what was in this book, but I was just like, Oh, 

[00:18:22] Amanda: something is 

[00:18:23] Kelsey: wrong 

[00:18:23] Amanda: with me. I 

[00:18:24] Kelsey: mean, 

[00:18:24] Amanda: I got it.

[00:18:26] Amanda: I got it. It really is just a series of unfortunate events. Like just one after the other, like she doesn't get a break. No, so I honestly was like, I think Kelsey will like it for that reason. Just like knowing what you like in books and how you like to be destroyed as you like to say. And I was like, this book will just, yeah, this book will destroy it in many ways, not that it's the sole function, but it does.

[00:18:49] Amanda: Revolve around her romantic relationships to a certain there's Jamie and then there's Henry or sorry, right. And then there's Henry. So like she does go through a series of romantic relationships [00:19:00] as well, and they are a big function of the plot. So I was like, Kelsey will probably also like it for that reason as well, though.

[00:19:07] Kelsey: , 

[00:19:07] Kelsey: yeah. Okay. So those are the pieces that were like, interesting to me. Okay. I 

[00:19:11] Amanda: definitely would not have called that you were interested in like the different periods of history that involve us. being involved in like conflict and war. So I will keep that in mind. I've obviously, I, I personally am like really interested in World War II and, , yeah, I have lots of different books I could have you read for that.

[00:19:25] Amanda: So I'll 

[00:19:26] Kelsey: keep that in mind. Even thinking, yeah, even thinking about like I was interested in the Kite Runner, you know, and even though that was not like specific to war, it is specific to like the U. S. 's essentially like occupation over there. , , and influences. And I think that, , I, I am not really like a proud American, you know, , and I would never, , boast that.

[00:19:52] Kelsey: And so I enjoy, when stories are very true and honest about U. S. 's involvement in other countries. 

[00:19:59] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:19:59] Kelsey: , [00:20:00] yeah. This was not really that. 

[00:20:02] Amanda: No, it wasn't supposed to be like, that's not what she set out to do. So, like, I think this book is what she. 

[00:20:09] Kelsey: But also, getting to what she was wanting to do, she titled this book, The Women.

[00:20:16] Amanda: She 

[00:20:16] Kelsey: did. And this is about one woman, and her very limited perspective. And I was waiting to hear from other point of views and I was curious as to why she chose this perspective for this book because Frankie is super problematic and, , she's privileged, a white privileged woman coming into this, and really has no other reason to be in war other than she wanted to make her dad proud. Like she really had no interest in it. , like I would have loved to hear from Ethel or Barb or any other woman that was over in the war Or even from like the [00:21:00] Vietnamese perspective all of those characters were just really one dimensional and used for the plot as a plot device essentially like thinking about Barb She's a black character in the book.

[00:21:17] Kelsey: And Chris and Hannah decides to make her the character that is also protesting the war. And also that her brother gets killed because he's protesting the war. And that just felt like very, , stereotypical of what what you would like. I have so many 

[00:21:35] Amanda: responses, I have so many responses, but go ahead.

[00:21:37] Amanda: Like that 

[00:21:38] Kelsey: just, that was fucked up to me. I was like, why? So, okay, 

[00:21:43] Amanda: so let's, okay, a couple of things. First of all, I think the reason why it's called, yes, let's get into it. The first of all, the reason why it's called the women and not the woman or Frankie is because it's. Frankie is supposed to be representative.

[00:21:57] Amanda: Like we're telling one story, right? This particular woman's [00:22:00] story, but in a way we're shedding light on the fact that there were all of these nurses, the women right in Vietnam who, , we're having experiences that may have been similar. So I, I don't see, I like getting into the title.

[00:22:11] Amanda: I think that's. Kind of silly. Like, I don't know. I think it's a point. No, no, I I think the reason why she named it that like, as very much clear in the text, to me, she's telling the story of the women who served in Vietnam. Can she tell every person's story? Of course not.

[00:22:26] Amanda: Right. There's a lemon. This book was already held long. , and I think also like female friendships are a core part of this story, especially both with Ethel and Barb. And then also at the end, you know, where she literally creates a home for other women who are healing from the war. Like it is about these women finding each other, supporting each other.

[00:22:44] Amanda: And while Ethel and Barb, it's not their story, I do think she does. Do them justice. Like I don't, I didn't find them to be one dimensional and that comment about Barb, like, Oh, of course she's the one protesting the war. And of course her brother dies. , Frankie's brother dies. So like, that's a not issue.

[00:22:58] Amanda: But in the war. [00:23:00] Yeah, but also think about it. Like, think about the number of black men, right, who died either, either in the war, or because of the horrible violence and lynchings that were happening in the South and had been happening, I understand it feeling like, oh, of course he has to die, but also that is true to the time for a variety of reasons.

[00:23:17] Amanda: And because black people were already experiencing so much injustice and because this was also taking place during the civil rights movement, it is perfectly plausible that Barb would be protesting. Of course she would be like, if she wasn't, I would be like, this is why. 

[00:23:31] Kelsey: But I go back to, like, why Frankie's perspective?

[00:23:34] Kelsey: Like, why did you want to take only Frankie's perspective? But here's the thing, though, if she had chosen someone 

[00:23:40] Amanda: else's perspective, then your argument would be like, she's a white woman. Why is she writing from the Vietnamese woman's perspective? She has no idea. Kind of like with Horace, right? Like, that's not her place.

[00:23:49] Amanda: Sure, maybe. I think it makes sense. I think Kristen Hannah, , is staying in her lane. I don't know that she grew up super privileged, but if you're going to tell a story like this, and you're a white woman, I think it was smart of [00:24:00] her to , tell a story that perhaps is more aligned with, in some ways, with her own lived experience, experience of perhaps her own family versus her, like, well, I need to tell this black woman's story about her experience in Vietnam and this Vietnamese woman's experience.

[00:24:12] Amanda: Like, I think that would have ended up being a lot more problematic. 

[00:24:15] Kelsey: But then it could have all been white women. It wasn't only just privileged white women who were going over there. Sure. Right? Yeah. Like, she could have written from any white woman's perspective. That's fine. But like, she chose a very privileged, like, someone who has no knowledge of like really the world beyond herself.

[00:24:36] Kelsey: But why does that, but why 

[00:24:37] Amanda: does that bother you so much? Cause if anything, I like the fact that she took someone who was in like 

[00:24:42] Kelsey: perspectives that you could, 

[00:24:43] Amanda: but I think it made this story that much more riveting because she already was in this like little like bubble, right? Her little glass castle and to see her finally kind of get plunged into the depths of this chaotic.

[00:24:56] Amanda: Violent turbulent time that was so far removed from her [00:25:00] cushy world I think that allowed one it I think led to a lot of the issues and conflicts that she faced because she like this was So far beyond her lived experience and because of that I think it had more of an impact versus somebody who like I don't know maybe grew up in You know, Detroit and, was like lower class and maybe already had a life that was marred by violence and conflict in some way.

[00:25:20] Amanda: And so maybe, not that Vietnam changed everyone who went, right? But I think this kind of, I don't want to say fall from grace, but kind of, that she had as she like went over there, to me that just made a much more compelling story. She definitely had a fall from grace. Yeah, exactly. And for me, I liked that more than like, this is already like some scrappy tough, I don't know, , woman from, I don't know, Kansas.

[00:25:43] Amanda: Who's just like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, who's just like, like, so for example, who was it? , Was it? Yeah. Ethel, who I think is like a bit more of a tougher character. Right. And she did, , you know, still went through her, her own kind of coming of age when she first showed up in Vietnam, as they all [00:26:00] did, like regardless of previous experiences, like Vietnam was a slap in the face for everyone.

[00:26:04] Amanda: But I think telling Ethel's story would have been less impactful because that shift would have been smaller. , not saying that it was non existent, like it would have just been. Not as, yeah, like significant and I liked that about 

[00:26:17] Kelsey: this story. I mean, so the other thing too is even though I enjoyed this aspect, why did she have to focus in on all the men?

[00:26:27] Kelsey: And like, her relationships with the men. What was the purpose of that one? And we're talking about a historical fiction that she could have, it could have been compelling with just, sure. I don't know. Maybe it was the loss that she was trying to like convey, but like it could have stopped at Jamie, you know?

[00:26:45] Kelsey: Yeah. And then like that would've been a great loss and then mean I 

[00:26:49] Amanda: personally would've been fine with it. Right. You know, I'm not a romance person and I think part of it is like strategic, right? She's trying to write a book that's gonna sell. Like that always factors in. And if you think about the fact that her [00:27:00] demographic is, is women who are reading her books.

[00:27:03] Amanda: So I think part of it is probably that part of it was probably strategic on her part to , add that I personally could have done without it. You know, I'm like, just give me the action. Give me the next plot point. Give me like the character development, but also I think historically, because women, even more so then, were so conditioned to shape their lives around men, and their lives were so shaped by men, it also didn't seem, it didn't seem far fetched to me.

[00:27:28] Amanda: It didn't seem, , like contrived. And I think she's very much a woman of her time. So for me, it didn't seem like it was just a contrivance that she was putting in there. 

[00:27:38] Kelsey: Like, 

[00:27:40] Amanda: but again, of course I agree with you. Like, I don't need the romance.

[00:27:43] Amanda: Like, yeah, I 

[00:27:44] Kelsey: don't know. I just think the focus could have been on the trauma of the war, you know, the Yeah. But the huge focus was about the trauma around her relationships with the men. And so I think that for me, I would've [00:28:00] personally, , liked to see more of the war and like those impacts.

[00:28:03] Kelsey: Oh, Kelsey , I, for historical fiction, like, come on. Yeah. I just was like, interesting. Even though I liked that and it was heartbreaking, , I'm very much like split between the two and I just think that, , it would have been great to hear more about, like, her experiences and like in Vietnam.

[00:28:24] Kelsey: And, , 

[00:28:25] Amanda: The thing is, like, I felt, especially because the book was so long, I felt like we got so much information about her experiences in Vietnam. Like, I don't think I was like, oh, I didn't get enough information about that. I'll say this. I don't think having the three relationships in the book meant that we somehow we're sacrificing information about the, I don't think that for me, that was not the case.

[00:28:48] Amanda: Like, do you, what do you feel like you didn't learn that you feel like she should have focused in on more? 

[00:28:52] Kelsey: Well I think I would go back to like the different perspectives. I would have preferred to have different perspectives rather than just Frankie's. , and that could have been. [00:29:00] Completely cut out is like that middle section of rye in her affair with, , with him.

[00:29:06] Kelsey: And then when he came 

[00:29:07] Amanda: back, he mean, 

[00:29:08] Kelsey: yeah, when I, when he came back and all of that and kind of going back to it too, is like, did you feel like it was very predictable? Like, did you know what was going to be happening

[00:29:18] Amanda: with like, with the whole book or with the ending or what do you mean in 

[00:29:21] Kelsey: general? Like.

[00:29:22] Kelsey: In general, any of the details? 

[00:29:24] Amanda: I mean, I think I was surprised by, cause again, I don't know a ton about the Vietnam war, except from the general information that we learned and that it was incredibly violent and traumatic. And let me, dad actually worked for the VA, , for a while, , as a doctor with the VA, and so we would often hear stories about the different veterans he was working with and the different, things that they were processing and working through, but I felt like I learned a lot about it.

[00:29:47] Amanda: So I guess I was surprised in that way. I think the thing that was predictable is like, I've read Chris and Hannah before. Like I knew Jamie was coming back at the end. Like that was a given. That's like a 

[00:29:55] Kelsey: normal thing that she 

[00:29:57] Amanda: does. Well, I don't know. I don't know if it's normal, but it [00:30:00] like, there's always some sort of like redemption at the end.

[00:30:02] Amanda: And so I was like, I knew as soon as she was like, Oh, he died. I was like, Oh, he's coming back. He's for sure coming back. , I, I think the Rai thing took me by surprise. I didn't necessarily see him coming back into the story in any meaningful way. So that was a little bit of a surprise for me.

[00:30:20] Kelsey: Okay. . I, . , with that relationship, I a hundred percent saw that coming with, , Ry coming back. And then with Ry coming back, I was like, Oh, Jamie is coming back 

[00:30:28] Amanda: with Ry coming back. I knew that they were going to start something up, but I didn't know that Ry was going to come back. No. Once he was back and I was like, Oh, okay.

[00:30:36] Kelsey: Yeah. I predicted that he was going to come back. I see. Before he came back. And then I predicted also that he was like, actually. Married. , and I was like, okay, yeah, like there's going to be this whole line of like, he lied to her and all of this. Yeah, I think also kind of going back to like the good things that I, the things that I enjoyed was that, the spirals that she goes through after war.

[00:30:58] Kelsey: I think that was really, , [00:31:00] even though the, you know, I have no, I have no, , experience of being at war or even of knowing someone close to me who has been to war and like coming back. , but I do have experience like with PTSD in general and like those like spirals. , they happen, right?

[00:31:16] Kelsey: And , I thought that was a really great portrayal of heavy emotion and, , and then she kept going down where she had no idea, like she was. Going so far, you know with the pills and with alcohol and with smoking with all of those addictions She couldn't see herself clearly

[00:31:34] Amanda: Yeah, 

[00:31:34] Kelsey: and I thought that that was really real 

[00:31:37] Amanda: Yeah And I I actually really appreciated the fact that She's trying like she goes to the VA like she's trying to yeah, and the fact that she's constantly Dismissed and told, you know, like women didn't serve in Vietnam and like to have that constantly be thrown back into your face and, you know, having people, both her own family who are embarrassed.

[00:31:56] Amanda: So one of the things we didn't mention in the summary is that, , her parents were [00:32:00] ashamed that she went to Vietnam and essentially told everyone she was like, what in, in France, I think, I don't remember which European country. Florence. Yeah. Florence. Okay. Florence. It's like you started with an F.

[00:32:10] Amanda: Yeah, they basically told everyone that she was just off kind of doing this, like, I don't know, gap year study abroad and she was in Florence while she was actually serving in Vietnam. And I think, about not only you're having these horrific experiences that just boggle the mind that you could never fathom, but then yeah, to come home and again, this was true for like all Vietnam veterans to come home and have people treat you horribly.

[00:32:34] Amanda: Like deny your experience, deny you the care that you need in order to get better. And just like the far reaching impacts of that. So for the people who survived both men and women, you are now impacting everyone in your sphere. , your family, your friends, your coworkers, and are in some ways kind of this loose cannon because until you've been able to figure out what's wrong and then treat it like you're having an impact on all of those [00:33:00] relationships and it just kind of ripples out from there.

[00:33:02] Amanda: And you think about the people who took their own lives. You think about domestic violence that occurred. You think about broken relationships that happened and you know, the story of all of the Vietnam vets who came home, , we're in some ways still feeling impacts of that state.

[00:33:15] Amanda: Cause it wasn't that many decades ago, you know, , yeah. So I really liked the book for that reason as well. I know one criticism of the book is that, the whole middle of the book is just so much chaos and turmoil and one thing going wrong after the other, like, can she catch a break?

[00:33:28] Amanda: And I was like. That is war, like war is chaos and turmoil and I think Chris and Hannah did a really great job of showing us that like, if you wanted a sweet little story with a bow at the end where like everything just got better and it's a happy ending, like you chose the wrong book.

[00:33:42] Amanda: Like this is a book about war and like living through a war. And so I don't understand because I saw that in a couple of reviews and I was like, I don't understand this criticism. Like, what did you think this was going to be about? 

[00:33:56] Kelsey: , yeah, that definitely wasn't a criticism of mine. It made sense to [00:34:00] me that nothing was going right.

[00:34:02] Kelsey: Because yeah, mental health after coming from experience like that, especially in a time where mental health really isn't taken seriously. No. Yeah. I can't imagine also like the experiences of the various women who are just like, yeah, you weren't in combat, like you weren't there.

[00:34:17] Kelsey: Yeah. Women weren't in Vietnam, like hearing stuff like that, that is wild and just like so gaslighting and would be so. hurtful and problematic for the people that experienced all those things. , so yeah, I didn't have that criticism. Oh, and 

[00:34:34] Amanda: the other thing, sorry, this just popped into my head as you were talking, which isn't directly related to that, but.

[00:34:39] Amanda: Because you were talking about like, oh, like this book is called The Women, but it's only one perspective. But I think another aspect of women and kind of womanhood that this book touches on, albeit brief, well, not even that briefly, it comes up several times, and I mentioned it earlier, is like, it also talks about, the impact of the war on the wives.

[00:34:59] Amanda: Of [00:35:00] these soliders and like, that's also a part of the women. Yes. There's the women who went to Vietnam and served as combat nurses, but there's also the story of all the women who are left behind with children and families to raise whose husband either died or were kept for years as prisoners of war and came home completely different men, Or even men who weren't prisoners of war, but came home, you know, horribly injured and missing limbs.

[00:35:24] Amanda: And just like, 

[00:35:24] Kelsey: yeah, 

[00:35:25] Amanda: I think that's. Also an important part of this narrative and shining the light on those women as well and their lived experience And so we get to see that as she's working with I forget the name of the organization in the book But essentially it's all about, wives and prisoners of war And at one point, you know They're selling these bracelets that have the names of men who are currently being held as prisoners of war And so you can buy a bracelet and kind of remember that person And one of the things that I discovered as I was prepping for this episode is that Kristen Hanna actually had one of those bracelets growing up and like her soldier didn't make it [00:36:00] home.

[00:36:00] Amanda: , and actually ended up dying over in Vietnam. , but that was also just a cool connection, a personal connection of hers, like to the story that she wanted to tell. , but yeah, I just wanted to highlight that as well. Like that's also an aspect. Of, of the women, I think. 

[00:36:13] Kelsey: Yeah. The other thing I was curious about, like, just one, I don't know that it's a criticism, but one thing that Chris and Hannah didn't ever mention, which is an important part of the Vietnam War and why people were swayed differently, is because this war was televised in the US.

[00:36:30] Kelsey: And, , That was yeah for the first time and that was a big reason why the public Felt so negatively about the war not only That so many people were dying essentially and I just think that I don't know that could have been included too 

[00:36:50] Amanda: in what way? What do you mean? Like, and 

[00:36:53] Kelsey: because it's not really like, , I just think that that was such an important piece of history.

[00:36:59] Kelsey: And the [00:37:00] reason why people were changing their perspective that wasn't really ever dove into. And I, I think that was important to at least mention, , the fact that, I mean, 

[00:37:09] Amanda: I thought they did mention, I mean, briefly, like they don't spend a lot of time on it that. Like, people were seeing things on television.

[00:37:17] Amanda: , I know they talk obviously about like the newspaper accounts of certain things. And like, when it comes out that one of the soldiers or a group of soldiers basically like massacres that village.

[00:37:28] Kelsey: Oh yeah. 

[00:37:29] Amanda: And I can't remember. 

[00:37:30] Kelsey: But it was like newspaper. Yeah. I 

[00:37:32] Amanda: can't remember in that section. They mentioned that it was also on the news or on the, , television as well. , but yeah, it was, it was, 

[00:37:38] Kelsey: I don't think it was mentioned. 

[00:37:39] Amanda: Yeah, , I I mean, yeah, I guess it's a valid point. I I don't know that it's a huge point, but yeah, it did, that was part of it, that like swayed and like even, even like, well, cause it wasn't, you know, also people who were coming back and saying like, what was happening?

[00:37:52] Amanda: And then also seeing the state in which people were coming back, right. From the war as well. . Also was a factor in like, you know, turning the tide [00:38:00] 

[00:38:00] Kelsey: and she does like consistently say, you know, like it was a whole generation That is completely affected and or died. Yeah Over there. I don't even know the numbers Did you happen to look that up?

[00:38:12] Kelsey: Because the numbers were huge and, , she does mention, you know, the use of agent orange and she, like during her time there, like she knew that that was being used and like plants were being killed and stuff.

[00:38:25] Kelsey: , and then it does talk about the after effects for women specifically, , miscarriages. Yeah. Yeah. We can touch on that. Yeah. Hmm. And, I remember, so obviously Frankie had a miscarriage, but then, when she's in Montana, her little farm, she has women talking about those things too, , about how they've had however many miscarriages and how devastating that is.

[00:38:49] Kelsey: , and that it's likely because of their time over in war. , and again, something 

[00:38:52] Amanda: that like would not have been , Talked about are important at the time, especially because again, it's like, well, it's not affecting [00:39:00] guys carrying babies, obviously. Right. Yeah. This is like a female issue because I don't know.

[00:39:04] Amanda: Maybe it made men sterile. I have no idea. 

[00:39:06] Kelsey: Maybe. , 

[00:39:06] Amanda: or like maybe increased birth defects. But again, it's like, you don't, I didn't know that. I'd never heard about the impacts of Agent Orange on women's reproductive health, because like, who's talking about this? Especially if people are convinced that there were no women there, right?

[00:39:19] Amanda: Right. , and yeah, I forgot. I am glad you brought that up because it's also an important part and yeah, devastated a lot of women who like wanted to become mothers and have a family and then. You know found out that they wouldn't be able to , also as a sign of I did look up the number So the amount of u.

[00:39:32] Amanda: s soldiers that died was fifty eight thousand two hundred twenty oh, okay. 

[00:39:37] Kelsey: But yeah, I think the thing that. I think you have a valid point , that this book was trying to do one thing and where my criticisms go is, I wish it wasn't essentially, I wish it was more than just the one thing.

[00:39:53] Kelsey: And I understand. So you want a different book? Yes. Yes. , I struggled with Frankie's perspective being such a privileged [00:40:00] woman, , and , her overall, , perspective of the war doesn't really change and she knows that people are against it and she knows like for good reason, but she, it doesn't really dive into that.

[00:40:11] Kelsey: She's just kind of like, but I want the women to be like recognized. And I get that. And I think you're right that that was the, the point of the book. , But I, I still struggled with that on a personal level. That her development there didn't like change throughout the book.

[00:40:25] Kelsey: She still was seeing everybody as like heroes. And it's more in my perspective, war is more complicated than that. And I think it also is a touchy subject as well, where I would never want. To make a veteran feel like, , Oh, your service, doesn't matter. But , at the same time, war is about killing people.

[00:40:46] Kelsey: And we justify that as a country that goes into many, many countries and kills other people. For the sake of freedom or for the sake of, you know, not having communems. Spread, , throughout the world. I [00:41:00] think that there is room to talk about, like, I mean, maybe it's just like a different book. I need a different book, but there needs to be space for that.

[00:41:08] Kelsey: And like criticism of the U S as well. And yeah, that was not this book nor her 

[00:41:14] Amanda: intention in writing it. And I don't think, 

[00:41:16] Kelsey: and that was my annoyance. 

[00:41:18] Amanda: Oh yeah. I think, yeah. So I think you wanted a different book. Cause I think one of the things that would have been like, not that it can't be done is that.

[00:41:24] Amanda: If the focus of your book is to, again, shed light on this experience that has not been talked about, that many people, like myself, were completely unaware of until I read this book, then at the same time saying, like, here's all of the issues with, the U. S. involvement in the war, which, I mean, she does talk about, like, Frankie is able to see, both why the war is problematic to some degree, and also see like, here's why we need to , take care of and support our veterans.

[00:41:49] Amanda: Also, I think this is really important to note, unlike other conflicts that the U. S. has been involved in, Vietnam almost exclusively relied on the draft. So it's not like [00:42:00] these are people who are like, yeah, I graduated from high school and like, I want to go serve my country. They were literally against their will dragged over there.

[00:42:08] Amanda: And so I think I think that's also really important to keep in mind, , you know, versus like , I don't know a lot about like the Korean war, for example, and I don't know how much the draft played a role in that, but there are conflicts that we've been in, especially in more recent history where it's like folks weren't being drafted.

[00:42:23] Amanda: The folks were just signing up to do this on their own. I think that's also important to keep in mind. Like people were literally trying to run away from the draft, right. And leaving the country. And protesting 

[00:42:32] Kelsey: the draft. Yeah. So I 

[00:42:33] Amanda: think that's also a part of the nuance to keep in mind that makes the Vietnam war.

[00:42:37] Amanda: A little bit different from some other conflicts perhaps. , And so it's like, these guys were just like, yeah, I'm like super like pro American, pro war. And I just want to go fight to fight. It's like, no, I was like living my life and the government was like, Hey, you like you're 18, get your ass over to Vietnam.

[00:42:51] Amanda: , so I, I think we have to keep that in mind too, but yeah, all of those things are important. Vietnam War, especially it's incredibly controversial and very nuanced. And I think there are books that, that address [00:43:00] that. I just don't think that this is that book. And I don't think she ever read that book.

[00:43:03] Kelsey: Share those books with me, Nandit. 

[00:43:04] Amanda: I mean, I haven't read them because I, I haven't read like a ton of books about that. Like I said, I haven't read a ton of books about the Vietnam War actually. , that's like one part of history. 

[00:43:13] Kelsey: There's less, there are less books about it though, right? In terms of historical fiction, , , just like our perspectives of those who like went to war.

[00:43:23] Kelsey: Right. I don't know. 

[00:43:25] Amanda: Cause like the Vietnam War isn't one of the periods I focus on a lot. For me, I read a lot of like World War II stuff like I was saying. , so I don't know, like, especially if you're a listener, if you're like, no, like here's like a whole list. Let us know.

[00:43:36] Amanda: I can also 

[00:43:36] Kelsey: probably is. I'm sure there is. I think this very specific part, an aspect of the war where women, , women's perspectives are highlighted. I think that was a part of the war that has been, , missing. 

[00:43:50] Amanda: Yeah, for sure. And like I said, I legitimately had no idea. Like I think in some like weird, random part of my brain, I was like, of course there were probably nurses cause there's always nurses in war, [00:44:00] but.

[00:44:00] Amanda: I, yeah, I didn't know the extent of their experiences and the extent of their treatment when they got back home. 

[00:44:08] Kelsey: , I actually didn't 

[00:44:09] Amanda: know that 

[00:44:10] Kelsey: either about them coming back home and, , yeah, that just being a very different political climate that they entered back into, , after facing so much.

[00:44:22] Kelsey: Atrocities. Yeah. Cause it's 

[00:44:24] Amanda: one thing to be told like for the men who came back who were told like you did the wrong thing and how dare you and all of these atrocities like were committed It's another thing to come back and be told like you were never there. Yeah. That's just a whole different kind of mindf*ck as well.

[00:44:38] Amanda: , so yeah, like I said, I really appreciate Kristen Hannah writing this book and I think as an author. One of the great things that you're able to do is to tell stories that have largely remained untold. And I'm really grateful that she told this story and I felt like. enlightened and more educated about this topic as a result of it, which is one reason why I love historical [00:45:00] fiction.

[00:45:01] Kelsey: , yeah, I, I still feel very, , complex emotions about it. I don't think I will be like phrasing it in the same way that you do. , I, , I enjoyed the book, like I said, and it was a page turner. , and, , I didn't have as much problem or issue with like all the trauma in it, which again, I'm like, maybe I'm just a little bit.

[00:45:26] Kelsey: , but yeah, I think in general, , like I said, I enjoyed the book. However, I am, , very split on mostly the rich entitled perspective of a white woman. , , and like her development throughout the, , book and the fact that so much of the book was focused in on her romantic relationships, , rather than just like the, the, 

[00:45:52] Amanda: wait, so you feel like she doesn't develop over the book?

[00:45:56] Kelsey: I think a huge part of her is still like the same kind of [00:46:00] privileged Girl, , like in what ways 

[00:46:03] Amanda: do you see that? 

[00:46:04] Kelsey: , I think really I wanted a different book is what I'm saying. And I wish her perspective around the war was different.

[00:46:12] Kelsey: , and that she had like kind of integrated that a little more than just focusing in on, , like her perspective of Women, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. 

[00:46:23] Amanda: Wait, wait, what do you think Frankie's perspective of the war is? 

[00:46:26] Kelsey: , just like, oh yeah, it's problematic, but like, we need to , make sure that we know that women are, we're there.

[00:46:31] Kelsey: Like, I think that that's pretty much where it ends. And what did you want it to be? Hard to dive into a little more of , why it was problematic. But again, like I said, that would be a different book. That's not what the focus of the book is. 

[00:46:44] Amanda: Yeah, I guess I'm still a little bit confused about your perspective because I, I feel like to me , I think Frankie does a good job of being able to both acknowledge, why, this conflict.

[00:46:56] Amanda: Was problematic, especially because she gets to see firsthand the ways in which the Vietnamese [00:47:00] people are just being destroyed by this conflict. Mm hmm. , And I think she also has the ability to see the lives of all these like young men are also being destroyed against their will.

[00:47:10] Amanda: So I don't know. I feel like she was able to hold both of those pretty well. Especially because it is hard to remain more objective about something when you're enmeshed in it in such a deep personal level. Yeah. I don't know. I guess that's something I'm not seeing like I think if it was just , very much like, Oh my gosh, like, it's a good thing we came and like save these Vietnamese people.

[00:47:26] Amanda: And that is nowhere in the book. I did not read that anywhere. Then I'm like, okay, this was very like one dimensional, a very kind of a shallow interpretation of this conflict. And I would have been like, hell no. I do think, especially again, we are looking at this from decades later.

[00:47:41] Amanda: With a lot more distance and perspective and she's someone who not only was of the moment She was in the moment and lived it. And so yeah, I don't know. I thought she did a pretty good job while also , of course handling her own Like the the fallout personally on her mental and [00:48:00] emotional life and physically.

[00:48:01] Amanda: Yeah 

[00:48:03] Kelsey: Yeah, I don't know. I just I just feel torn And I'm not sure that I'm Giving it justice At the moment, I 

[00:48:11] Amanda: , it feels like you're very caught up on the fact that she's because you keep referring, like, she's just like this rich, privileged woman, white woman. And I feel like that is the basis where you're starting.

[00:48:19] Amanda: So because of that, you're like, I just 

[00:48:21] Kelsey: like, yeah, I did. I, yeah, I didn't like that entry point, , at all. And I, again, I'll go back to like, I just wish there were other perspectives and like less of the. Yeah, 

[00:48:34] Amanda: I mean, I think it would have been cool to definitely have like, , a book that had, this book would have been a great book to have multiple POVs for sure.

[00:48:41] Amanda: , , and that could have been a very, a very cool story to tell and maybe somebody will tell it, but, , yeah, I really liked it. I 

[00:48:48] Kelsey: don't know. I also have some reviews where I agree with them and, I just don't think that I can do it justice in my perspective, in my limited perspective. , and so I'll let them speak [00:49:00] to it a little more.

[00:49:01] Kelsey: We can. Okay. I'm excited to hear those. 

[00:49:02] Amanda: , but also I have like 

[00:49:03] Kelsey: five. You have five. Okay. We might 

[00:49:06] Amanda: have to like cut it to four. 

[00:49:08] Kelsey: One is like. A sentence. Oh, okay. Okay. 

[00:49:12] Amanda: , well, before we get to that, though, so I'm curious, especially because you have such a conflicted, I am so conflicted. Is this a final recommendation?

[00:49:21] Amanda: Would you recommend the women? So, ,.

[00:49:28] Kelsey: I think I would just letting people know that this is a very like, , one dimensional perspective , it is Frankie's perspective. Okay. And her journey, it is not of the women of Vietnam. It is one woman's perspective of Vietnam and, , which is potentially, you know, what a lot of women experienced, probably not the perspective that they had, but, , I will leave it at that for now.

[00:49:56] Kelsey: And I'm trying to make it into more than it is. [00:50:00] And that is where the conflict is arising. And so, , I will leave it at that. So yes, I will recommend it for that reason. 

[00:50:09] Amanda: Okay. 

[00:50:09] Kelsey: with that caveat. 

[00:50:10] Amanda: Okay. I think we can also apply the same thinking to this book that we apply to the books when we're talking about our book recs for Heritage Month, right?

[00:50:18] Amanda: This is one story. It is not representative of all stories. It is one valid experience. There were privileged white women who gave up their privilege and went to war. , and I think that story is just as valid. , but I would say that, yeah, this is obviously a book that I would recommend. Clearly gave it five stars.

[00:50:33] Amanda: I'm a huge Kristen Hanna fan. And , even if you're like, Ooh, I don't know if I want to read about the Vietnam war. Check out some of our other books. Like the Nightingale is really great. That one sat in world war two, the four winds is amazing. And that takes place, I think during, I want to say the dust bowl.

[00:50:46] Amanda: , but she's just, I think, a really talented writer and does her homework, which is so important. You're a historical fiction author. , so yeah. All right. Well, moving on to literally the best or literally the worst. We're going to read some one [00:51:00] star and five star Goodreads reviews. I'll do five star because I love this book and Kelsey will do one star because she's on the fence.

[00:51:06] Amanda: Yes. 

[00:51:07] Amanda: , 

[00:51:07] Amanda: and because 

[00:51:08] Kelsey: That's just what we always do. 

[00:51:11] Amanda: , but why don't you go ahead since you have one more than I do. Why don't you start things for us today?

[00:51:17] Kelsey: So, all right, this is from Lisa of Troy from Goodreads and she says. Hot take the book would never end the women details Francis Frankie McGrath's experience serving in Vietnam War as a nurse and her transition into civilian life. The book had no plot It is based on one character. The problem is Frankie isn't likable.

[00:51:40] Kelsey: She is an entitled spoiled rich girl She has everything handed to her and her reason for going to war was to be on the hero's wall and not wanting to work her way Up at the hospital, although she constantly pulls on her veteran roommates, she couldn't be bothered to provide support to nurses that arrived after her.

[00:51:58] Kelsey: Apparently she hasn't heard of paying it [00:52:00] forward. Hannah also never gets into what makes Frankie so unique, what makes her special, what drives her, what about her would the world miss if she was gone. In the women, I wanted to hear about the other service women. After part one, it was time To transition to someone else.

[00:52:18] Kelsey: How did major Goldstein, the chief nurse get to the position and how did she cope with her placing the nurses determining their fates? Why didn't we shift to Ethel and Barb and what happened before Frankie? Additionally, Hannah is far too verbose, leaving the readers to wade through needless paragraphs, inserting.

[00:52:38] Kelsey: Uninteresting details. Sorry, I just don't care about the cheap motel, especially at the end of the book. Not sorry. The foreshadowing is so heavy that the book becomes predictable, and there are far too many characters. All of them are underdeveloped. The author did Far too much telling instead of showing.

[00:52:56] Kelsey: Show us memories of Finley and Francis. Give us the backstory on [00:53:00] Bethel, Ethel and Barb. Don't tell us, show us. Although I greatly enjoyed learning more about the brave women who valiantly served our country, this book was a chore to read. So I think that they said it much better than I did throughout this episode.

[00:53:17] Kelsey: , but yeah, I just think that again, like that there were so many perspectives that could have been taken that, , didn't just include Frankie. 

[00:53:27] Amanda: So, I agree with that. Like I said, I could definitely see this book being rewritten from multiple perspectives and be even more, , educational and informative and compelling.

[00:53:34] Amanda: I, I'm still struggling and I don't know if I just have blinders on, but like hearing her be like, Oh my gosh, she's just like an entitled, spoiled, rich girl. I'm like, once she gets to Vietnam, like at the beginning, yes, of course I can see that once she gets to Vietnam, I'm not entirely sure. And even through the rest of the book, like where she's.

[00:53:49] Amanda: Getting that from, , well, I don't think she has any like textual evidence to support that. 

[00:53:54] Kelsey: Like, well, even coming back, like her parents gift her a fucking house. Like, [00:54:00] yes. So, 

[00:54:02] Amanda: so yeah. So like I, that, that I get like the fact that she is someone of means, of course, like we know that from the get go, but in terms of like her.

[00:54:12] Amanda: What we haven't talked about is , she leaves all of that behind. She goes out on her own, right? If she first goes and lives with her, her friends, whose parents also provided for them, by the way, and had a home to go back to. , and she goes and lives out there and then she ultimately , goes and starts this whole like refuge for women out in Montana.

[00:54:28] Amanda: And so I, I don't know, I'm just like getting this, like she's, she got from 

[00:54:31] Kelsey: the 

[00:54:32] Amanda: house that she got. But so, but so, but so again, like, yeah, she comes from privilege. Like she comes from money, but I think the way that she uses that doesn't show her being an entitled selfless. Spoiled brat. Like she's taking her funds and her means to help other people.

[00:54:46] Amanda: Like she easily could have been like, you know what? I'm going to go live in my cute little house that my parents bought. I'm not going to get involved in the war effort. I'm not going to like go back in as this woman said she didn't pay it forward. I'm like, she does go back and pay it forward. She works to help bring men home from the war and like all of these organizations.

[00:54:59] Amanda: So I'm [00:55:00] just like, I don't get it. Like, I don't think the book supports that. 

[00:55:03] Kelsey: She didn't help the nurses who came in. She'd be like, I know I have to be, or I could be patient. And like what Barb and Ethel did for me, but I just don't want to, like, that's like literally on the pages.

[00:55:14] Amanda: Yeah. And like, I think like at one point she does tell one of the new, like. Like nurses or recruits, , something along those lines. And like that part, like I get, but like for her to just make this sweeping statement that she doesn't pay it forward that is an overstatement and like, not accurate.

[00:55:28] Kelsey: Like, I also think that, coming back to how many mistakes that Frankie made when she gets back, she was able to make those because she had a landing spot with her family and her friends. As did Barb and Ethel. , but 

[00:55:44] Amanda: no, yes they did. They both had families back home. They had a support system. They had a place to live.

[00:55:49] Amanda: Like Ethel literally like had her own bunkhouse that she got to renovate and bring her friends to live with her. Yeah. Like they both also had like places to land. 

[00:55:58] Kelsey: Barb did. 

[00:55:59] Amanda: Barb went back and [00:56:00] lived with her family. Like she was like out on the street, like, yeah, she didn't get granted a house in her own car.

[00:56:05] Amanda: Yes. But it's not like they were like, because some people literally did end up becoming houseless right after this, like none of the other women in this book were in that. And 

[00:56:13] Kelsey: see that's where I think the perspective struggles where I would have loved to see what happened. When people fucked up and like where did it land them?

[00:56:21] Kelsey: What if they weren't privileged or have a family that like supported them, right? Like that's, I think that's what it's trying to get at is, , 

[00:56:28] Amanda: But again, like that's like taking a book that is not one thing. I wish it was something else. I'm like, well, then you read the wrong book. Like this book very clearly told you what it was from the beginning.

[00:56:37] Amanda: Like it even says on the book jacket, like she's this privileged girl. So it's weird to go into a book knowing that. And then also criticizing the book for that reason. Like this clearly, I think so. It'd be like me reading, a book, like a romance, like it would be like me choosing to read bride, like after reading the book, jacket and I'm like, Oh, this is so like, why is he aware werewolf

[00:56:57] Amanda: Like, that doesn't make any sense to me. I wouldn't [00:57:00] choose that book. Like, I don't know. That was a little bit bizarre to me. 

[00:57:04] Kelsey: I just think, I think they're valid points. And I think also, , though the part about, her writing style of show or telling, not showing. Mm-hmm . That comes up a lot with criticisms.

[00:57:14] Kelsey: So I Interesting. Not, it's for me, I don't care. I don't care about the writing. . Yeah. We, but that is a criticism from other people that like, has gone in depth, , 

[00:57:24] Amanda: and said over and 

[00:57:25] Kelsey: over. 

[00:57:25] Amanda: Interesting. I like, I don't see that, but I also think if you're going to cover so much time for the sake of brevity, sometimes you do have to just tell it instead of like showing .

[00:57:35] Amanda: If she took time to like go back and like show the memories of this book would have been like 600 pages, right? Okay, first five star review from Deborah I love books that not only teach me something but are thought provoking and evoke emotion This book fits that bill to a T and then some I don't think it is possible for Kristen Hannah to write a bad book as with her other books.

[00:57:58] Amanda: The women is well [00:58:00] written Well thought out in gripping I was instantly absorbed in this book and had a hard time putting it down I felt as if I were a fly on the wall Traveling to Vietnam with Frankie and observing what life as a nurse was like during that time the devastating injuries of the soldiers the choices the medical staff had to make who could be saved who not to treat the Explosions the living conditions the lack of supplies and the relationships that were formed left an impression on me I was shocked to learn that the nurses who provide medical care to soldiers were not considered veterans, even though they signed up with the army, that they could not go to the VA for help with PTSD.

[00:58:33] Amanda: It was appalling and heartbreaking. Besides the beautiful writing, I loved how Hannah showed the strength of female friendship, how the women supported each other and formed a family unit amongst themselves. This was one of the highlights for me. They lifted each other up, loved each other, accepted each other's faults, celebrated their strengths.

[00:58:49] Amanda: And when everyone else was letting them down, they knew they could count on each other. This book also shows how PTSD affected nurses, doctors, and soldiers. This book depicts scenes of great [00:59:00] bravery, political upheaval, war protests, the effects of PTSD, self medication with drugs, friendships, family dynamics, sexism, and growth.

[00:59:07] Amanda: The characters are fully fleshed out and feel real. I felt for them, rooted for them and cried with them. Well written, gripping, shocking, and thought provoking. 

[00:59:17] Kelsey: Great. 100 percent agree. I, I would come back to Barb and Ethel's, like, friendship with Frankie and, , coming back to , you know, how I said, I felt like Barb was more of a one dimensional stereotypical black woman.

[00:59:31] Kelsey: , I also remember when they were at war and Ethel was telling, , Frankie, like, well, she's a black woman. And she's had to face, like, other, injustices, right? But it's never shown. It's just referenced in the book. And so I guess that's an example of telling not showing.

[00:59:49] Kelsey: , in the book. And I think, , that's just one, one more, yeah. What would you have wanted 

[00:59:54] Amanda: her to do? Like to show, the racism in the army? Or? 

[00:59:58] Kelsey: Yeah, perhaps. [01:00:00] It would have been more compelling I think , but coming again coming back to Barb and Ethel I actually did not feel like the great Relationship throughout this book.

[01:00:10] Kelsey: I just felt like they were constantly taking care of Frankie And at the end Barb Asks Frankie and it was like hard for her to ask her to come to this protest with her and just felt like they were constantly taking care of Frankie rather than Frankie being a significant part of that friendship.

[01:00:27] Kelsey: So I didn't feel that deep friendship between them. 

[01:00:32] Amanda: Oh, I really loved their scenes together. For sure. Especially like at the beginning. , And watching her like grow into her own in that friendship as well and then like ultimately earning the respect going from like, I don't know, being wet behind the ears and then like growing into her own as a nurse, I mean I agree in that, yeah I think they definitely spend a fair amount of the text taking care of her for sure, like I'm not going to disagree with that, but I really loved those scenes.

[01:00:53] Kelsey: So I'm going to clump this one liner into the next one. Okay. And , I'd want to say that [01:01:00] before I get into the second one, I think this is a perspective that I wasn't able to speak to well, which is why I haven't like, I haven't said anything about it yet, but I wanted someone else to speak to it better than I could have.

[01:01:12] Kelsey: , okay. So this is from Amanda Cruddock. I've never heard that name before. , this is the one liner. If Meredith Gray served in Vietnam and came home, this would be her story. 

[01:01:26] Amanda: I don't disagree. I really agree with that. I don't know. I'm not a huge Meredith Gray fan, but 

[01:01:32] Kelsey: I, I have not watched, , the, that I haven't watched Grey's 

[01:01:35] Amanda: Anatomy since college.

[01:01:37] Kelsey: Yeah, but I kind of agree. Okay. So this one is, just two paragraphs, but this is from Conlin I really wanted to love this, but. It's the same white American savior view of Vietnam War that we've seen many times before. Despite some well researched details, Kristen Hanna doesn't seem to care as much about historical or cultural [01:02:00] accuracy when it comes to writing Vietnam or Viet Minis people.

[01:02:05] Kelsey: It feels as if Hannah's research stopped at looking up stock images of Vietnam. Nothing to agree. I don't know. Egregious, egregious. Thank you. Nothing too egregious, but it definitely took me out of the story and created many eye roll moments. For example, Hannah assumed Vietnamese women only war. And I don't know what this is.

[01:02:25] Kelsey: I'll die for every situation working in the fields carrying baskets of fruit serving Jack Daniels in an American bar They didn't the fast pace and melodramatic turn of events also force the characters to remain one dimensional and rush the natural development and chemistry of Frankie's friendships and relationships the telling Instead of showing writing style is not for me.

[01:02:47] Kelsey: So I had no reason to finish this sadly. So I think from someone who I believe they are likely Vietnamese themselves. And, , they've seen a lot of stories, , written, , about [01:03:00] Vietnam and Vietnamese people. And they're saying that this was a stereotypical viewpoint of Vietnamese women, , and wanted to see a better.

[01:03:09] Kelsey: , more thought out perspective than what was shown. 

[01:03:13] Amanda: I mean, I, I mean, I'm not going to disagree with that, but I also feel like Kristen Hanna, like I said earlier, like she stays in her lane and I think that's a smart thing to do as a writer and in some respects. And so she doesn't spend a ton of time on the , Vietnamese people or culture because she's not telling their story and I don't think she should.

[01:03:29] Amanda: Like there are definitely Vietnamese authors who can and can do it justice. So yeah. Cool. So, I think if she is getting details wrong like that, it's obviously an issue. But I also think she very strategically doesn't spend a ton of time talking about Vietnamese characters. I don't know that she would, you know, be able to do them justice .

[01:03:45] Amanda: And I think she's aware of that. Like, I think she's much more aware than some other historical authors we've read, fiction authors who feel like they're able to write about things that they maybe shouldn't. So, , I can kind of see both sides of that. And I appreciate, like, yeah, having a different perspective [01:04:00] on someone who might have more information about that.

[01:04:03] Kelsey: Yeah, and, , I think that was part of the book that kind of irked me. I think you're giving Kristen, like, a lot of leeway in that, , it seems like she had a one dimensional view of Vietnamese people, and that's what showed up on the page. And so there could have been, I'm saying as a critique, could have been more, , even though she didn't go in depth with Vietnamese people, there could have been more, , representation there, I guess, even when just referencing the people.

[01:04:33] Amanda: Okay. I'm not sure what that would look like, but, 

[01:04:35] Kelsey: not only having them working in the field and carrying baskets of fruit and putting them into these. Stereotypical, like, character, , But I, but I also 

[01:04:45] Amanda: mean, like, again, given Frankie's role in the war, her interactions with Vietnamese people would have consisted of either her treating people, in these field hospitals who came in, Or, and like going into the villages and treating folks like she did, or it would have been [01:05:00] when she was on break, right, and going into a Vietnamese city and like, having lunch , so she would only see them in those capacities.

[01:05:08] Amanda: It's not like she would have been necessarily, I don't know, forging. Like meaningful, unfortunately, relationships with them. Right. Her time in those places would have been really brief. , but yeah, I mean, again, , it's interesting. Cause , it feels like people wanted this book to be something else, which is fine, but I don't know that the book build itself that way.

[01:05:29] Amanda: And I don't think she ever set out to write that story. And like, for example, like I read a book, it's actually behind me on the shelf and it's about, , the conflict , . , in Cambodia. , and it's a Cambodian author writing from their perspective. Like, that's what that story tells.

[01:05:41] Amanda: And I knew that going into it. And I wanted to learn about that perspective. I'm not going to go read a book by like a white person, you know, like, I don't know. It's like, if that's what you're looking for, then go out and find those books. And if they're not there and , then we have an issue to address in like the publishing world.

[01:05:54] Kelsey: So even just like. She's talking about the Vietnamese war. She needed to also have [01:06:00] researched about people on the other side. It didn't just have to be this white perspective and also coming back to zero research. But that's how it's coming off is what this person is saying. And I think that is a point that needs to like stand on its own.

[01:06:16] Kelsey: And I think, , that's important for Chris and Hannah to potentially explore in the future or in her future books. If she's going to be having, an entire book set in a different country, right? Or part of the book in a different country. Those representations need to be accurate and need to be, , less one dimensional, in my opinion.

[01:06:38] Kelsey: And so coming back to the first comment that this person said was about, , the white American saviorism, , that did show up on page for me. And, , I didn't particularly enjoy that. Especially when they were going to, like, the villages. The villages, yeah. Yeah, and. And these, you know, these poor Vietnamese people, , you know, that's how it came off to me.

[01:06:59] Kelsey: And I [01:07:00] agree with that comment. 

[01:07:01] Amanda: Hmm. 

[01:07:02] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[01:07:03] Amanda: Yeah. , again, I think I can see both sides and I don't want to just be like staunchly defending Christine. Cause I think you make good points. Like if you're going to write, and you know me, like if you're on a right historical fiction, like do your homework and keep it as accurate as possible.

[01:07:12] Amanda: , I think this book is tricky though, because in terms of the white saviorism. If you are a combat nurse deliberately going to a village to help people,, I don't know how you get around that, especially if like, we know that's a thing already.

[01:07:22] Amanda: So people are automatically going to see it through the lens. I didn't actually see it that way. I was just like, Oh, like this is a combat nurse doing what she knows how to do. And like helping these people in the village which they could have not , right. They could've been like we're focusing on just our.

[01:07:35] Amanda: Soldiers and our people, so I don't, I just didn't get lightsaberism from that, , but I can see why someone would like, you know, paint it in that particular light. Okay, my second one, Canadian Jen says, the women was divine. Hannah's writing has matured much like a fine wine. Each of her stories becoming richer, more complex, multi layered.

[01:07:55] Amanda: The women is a tribute to the many unsung female nurses who served in the Vietnam War. Frankie, 20, [01:08:00] has graduated nursing school and has enlisted. Although green, her nursing skills sharpened during her two tours. However, when she returns home, the welcome isn't a warm one. . The bravery encouraged these veterans had not only fighting for their lives overseas, but fighting for their own recognition at home amid a storm of protest and divisions, the sacrifices made the lies told.

[01:08:19] Amanda: Hannah masterly develops a character from a young naive girl to a professional combat nurse to a veteran returning home Experiencing many of the symptoms men did Grief PTSD shame addiction and healing five stars Hannah.

[01:08:32] Amanda: You knocked it out of the park

[01:08:35] Kelsey: Okay, we have two more right? Yes, so Sonja Marie I think it might be Sonya. It's Sonya. It's Sonya. The J? I've never seen it, , written like that. , okay. I wanted to like this book, honestly, a wartime historical fiction that isn't about World War II. Sign me up. Make it about the women. I won't even wait for it on Libby.

[01:08:59] Kelsey: [01:09:00] Take my money. Except I hated it. Frankie, a spoiled rich girl from California, decided to be a hero because a hot guy at a party gave her permission. She went to nursing school and then signed up for the army to go to Vietnam and hang with her brother. This obviously ends poorly. Her parents are snobs.

[01:09:17] Kelsey: Her roommates are flat, cliche characters. They have amazing friendships, allegedly, but we are only told this, never shown. Frankie has a terrible grown out pixie, but every man still falls in love with her. There's chemistry in love, but again, we are only told not shown lots of people die. The phrase sucking chest wound is abused.

[01:09:39] Kelsey: She goes home and has bad dreams. Relationships are hard. I cared about none of it. 

[01:09:45] Amanda: Okay. Marie. All right, Sonia. Thank you. All right. Okay. So this is from Katie. Kristen Hanna is a masterful storyteller.

[01:09:54] Amanda: If you are a lover of historical fiction, Kristen Hanna is probably an auto read author for you. If you normally [01:10:00] shy away from historical fiction but are interested in trying it out, I would start with one of her books. Totally agree. Her ability to transport the reader to another time and immerse you into the culture of the era is unmatched.

[01:10:09] Amanda: I find I always leave her books heartbroken, hopeful, and hungry for more, and The Women is no exception. This story focuses on 20 year old Frankie McGrath, who decides to leave her idyllic life as a dutiful daughter and nurse in Coronado, California, and enlists in the Army Nurse Corps. While the book is focused on Frankie, it really tells the story of the often unsung heroes of the war, the women who were in Vietnam.

[01:10:30] Amanda: We get to experience Frankie's journey to the war zone. Her time there and her heartbreaking return home. Hannah's books are simultaneously long yet quick reads. Her characters get their hooks in you and it's hard to think of anything else. I love historical fiction because it teaches you so much while telling a very entertaining story.

[01:10:49] Amanda: It combines the best parts of nonfiction and fiction wrapped together. The women is definitely a heavier read, but I can't recommend it enough. It's the perfect book club book. I [01:11:00] mean, that's why I love historical fiction. You learn something and you have a great story. 

[01:11:04] Kelsey: Your book club didn't read this one, right?

[01:11:06] Amanda: , 

[01:11:06] Amanda: no, 

[01:11:06] Kelsey: I don't know if you've ever actually read, , a Kristen Hanna book. We should. Okay. My last one, it's a little longer. Okay. , from Laurel, like a Hallmark movie with the tear jerkers amped up to 1 million, seriously, this was every single streaming Vietnam veteran stereotype and 1960s cliche shot into a heaping pile of excrement and left to chill overnight, stinky and unpleasantly cold and squishy when you try to pick it up the next morning.

[01:11:39] Kelsey: The writing is shit. All tell, absolutely no show. The foreshadowing is constant palm strike to the face. It is trying way too hard to be legit. And it's super duper obvious Hannah is not a vet. Because while she did a ton of research and wants the reader to know that, there are small things that are just obnoxiously bad.

[01:11:59] Amanda: If you 

[01:11:59] Kelsey: want to [01:12:00] read about women serving in Vietnam and are dying to read a fiction book and not one of the handful, so few memoirs, do yourself a favor and read the road home instead. I think one of the reasons I'm so salty about this book is because it kind of rips off the plot of the road home.

[01:12:18] Kelsey: The basics anyways, like I cannot tell you how few original ideas the women contains when I say that it has every single Vietnam war stereotype in existence mashed into one book. I am not lying serving with a heaping side of white saviorism. So I really appreciated this one because they recommended a better book.

[01:12:41] Kelsey: Yeah, I was gonna say that. Yeah. So I was like, I actually want to go look it up. Cause I was 

[01:12:47] Amanda: doing while you were talking. I was like, what is this book? Yeah. I don't. And 

[01:12:51] Kelsey: like, who was there in it by? But also there was a. A larger list that I did not include in this that were also recommended by this [01:13:00] person.

[01:13:00] Kelsey: Okay. , that thought it was better done. And so yeah, I, I would agree with those stereotypes and I'm just like, that's kind of what it felt icky with, , Barb. And so I just, I wanted, yeah, I wanted more. 

[01:13:14] Amanda: I definitely appreciate, , if someone's like Oh my gosh, like, this is horrible and like, it can do better. I'm like, Oh great. Then definitely if you point me in the direction of something better, like check it out.

[01:13:23] Amanda: So I actually appreciate that. She was like, okay, let me provide that for you. Okay, I'm going to jump into my last one because I know we've been at this for a while and this one's been long. Okay. , this is from, honestly, it looks like Kayla, but I think it's probably pronounced Kayla, even though it's spelled K E I L A.

[01:13:38] Amanda: I don't know. So, , we're going to jump in. This book is probably the best book I've read in a long time. I took an entire class in college called Vietnam Wars History. That was the title of the class. And I don't think we talked about women in the war. at all. But I mean, yeah, of course they were there.

[01:13:53] Amanda: And of course they saw devastating things, but do we talk about them? No. Are they really recognized? Also? No, this [01:14:00] is not unlike many things women do just overlooked. While this book is historical fiction, it is obvious that it's well researched and many things are true. For instance, there are eight women who died in Vietnam and are shown on the Vietnam War Memorial.

[01:14:12] Amanda: Now, no out of 58, 000 men, this is not a huge percentage, but women were present at the war too, and still were present despite many being told otherwise. I loved this story of Frankie's life from naive teenager signing up for this horrific war to seasoned nurse coming home from the war, the war didn't magically.

[01:14:29] Amanda: end for her or many others when she got home and neither did the horrors. They just took a different form. I'm not usually one for coming of age or life stories, but this book was just fantastic. And I felt so strongly for Frankie. I wanted to know how things turned out for her. The friendships in this book were pivotal.

[01:14:44] Amanda: I don't think that Frankie would have made it through the war without her friends and she wouldn't have come out the other side without them either. After the war, the friendships didn't end. They just took a different form, and they evolved. I love that Frankie had these women in her life, and this book highlighted how important female [01:15:00] friendships can be and are.

[01:15:01] Amanda: This is one of those books that will make you feel sad for history, glad for how far we've come for women's rights, and give you an idea for how far we need to go. This book invoked so many strong feelings in me as I was reading it, despite it being almost 500 pages. I didn't want it to end and I didn't want to put it down.

[01:15:17] Amanda: It was that good. Kristen Hannah is my go to historical fiction author. And for good reason, her books are fabulous. And this one is no different. This book is going to stick with me for a long time. I don't normally order books. They have already read as I don't reread. Oh, sounds like me, but I'm making an exception to this one.

[01:15:34] Amanda: , this is probably going to be one, if not the one top read of the year, it's worth owning by it, read it, learn more. This is a book that I will be recommending for years to come. It's a must read. All right. She definitely really loves this book. 

[01:15:48] Kelsey: Maybe 

[01:15:48] Amanda: even more than I do. 

[01:15:51] Kelsey: I definitely want to leave like on a positive note , I think that this book definitely accomplished like highlighting the fact that women were.[01:16:00] 

[01:16:00] Kelsey: present, during the Vietnam war and, , supported, you know, , the troops in coming back home alive. And so that it was, , a good book for that reason especially 

[01:16:12] Amanda: now, I mean, I think even more so than ever, we just need to make sure that we're just celebrating, recognizing, uplifting, acknowledging women, , Okay. Well, that was a doozy of a, I told you it was going to be long. I know of an episode, but yeah, we both clearly have strong feelings about this book. And if you do as well, you know what you need to do. You can comment here. , on either Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can head to our socials, , which once again are, , lit vibes only underscore podcast at Instagram and or on Instagram and then lit vibes only podcast at, I don't know, I can only say at on YouTube and on tech talk.

[01:16:49] Amanda: We would love to hear from you and hear your thoughts, especially about this book. Cause I know there's been a lot of chatter about it. Yeah. Let us know which side you fall on and, , we'll [01:17:00] see you next Monday. See you next Monday. Bye.