Ep. 24: Lit It or Quit It: Kindred by Octavia Butler

TW: Brief mentions of rape and suicide

Join Kelsey and Amanda as they navigate the harrowing yet captivating world of Octavia Butler's 'Kindred', tackling intense themes of slavery, historical trauma, and controversial character dynamics. Prepare for a detailed discussion that straddles the lines between historical fiction and time-travel, examining the emotional and societal impacts of the novel.

00:00 Content Warning and Introduction

00:43 Social Media and Listener Engagement

02:32 Chit Chat w/ Amanda & Kelsey

08:13 Book Discussion: Kindred by Octavia Butler

51:07 LITerally the Best or LITerally the Worst

01:05:21 Social Media Plugs

Follow us on TikTok & Youtube @litvibesonlypodcast and on Instagram @litvibesonly_podcast. We'd love to hear from you!

See you on Mondays!

Chapters

• 0:00 Content Warning and Introduction
• 0:43 Social Media and Listener Engagement
• 2:32 Chit Chat w/ Amanda & Kelsey
• 8:13 Book Discussion: Kindred by Octavia Butler
• 51:07 LITerally the Best or LITerally the Worst
• 1:05:21 Social Media Plugs

Transcript

Ep. 24: Lit It or Quit It: Kindred
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[00:00:00] Amanda: In order to make choices that are best for you, please note that this episode does contain brief mentions of rape 

[00:00:11] Kelsey: Welcome to Lit Vibes Only, where we lit the shit out of books we love and hate. I am Kelsey. And I am Amanda. 

[00:00:22] Amanda: And this is our second lit it or quit it episode for the month of February. But I want to first share, did you 

[00:00:31] Kelsey: say get it? Let's get it. I, this is going to be a weird episode. You guys, 

[00:00:36] Amanda: Kelsey's feeling a little punchy today because she had a very long day of work.

[00:00:41] Amanda: , and we are recording this after work. So, you know, it's going to be one of those episodes, but, , before we get too off the rails, our socials are. , we're on Instagram at lit vibes only underscore podcast, and we are also on YouTube and on Tik TOK at [00:01:00] lit vibes only podcast. So I almost 

[00:01:02] Kelsey: got tripped up.

[00:01:03] Amanda: I know. I know. I feel like honestly, I get a little nervous doing the intro. 

[00:01:09] Kelsey: It's just. Also, it's so late and I'm so tired, so it's such an easy 

[00:01:15] Amanda: thing to screw up, but if you are not already following us on our socials, please take a moment and do that now and, , come, come join us, , over in that world. We have so much fun.

[00:01:31] Amanda: , and also I always forget to say this, but Kelsey is so good about reminding everyone if you haven't yet rated and reviewed us. on either Apple podcast or here on Spotify. I don't know why I said here on Spotify. You might be listening to an Apple podcast on either platform. , if you haven't yet, please take a moment and do so.

[00:01:50] Amanda: It really takes like two seconds, but it does so much for us. It really, truly does. I feel like we say this so much on the podcast and people are probably just tuning it out at this point, but it [00:02:00] really does. It really helps. Please write a little blurb 

[00:02:06] Kelsey: that's if you love listening to our podcast, I want to hear more.

[00:02:10] Kelsey: The only way we're going to be able to continue this is if other people hear this podcast. So tell your friends, tell your family, tell your coworkers, tell your everybody on the podcast and rating it. Thank you. 

[00:02:25] Amanda: so much. , yeah, we, we have, we have fun and , It's so much more fun when there are more folks in the mix.

[00:02:30] Amanda: Yeah, we want you to have fun. So Kelsey was just sharing something with me concerning that she had come across on book talk. , and I didn't get to hear the full story. So please, please catch me up. 

[00:02:47] Kelsey: Okay. So there has been a recent trend on Tik TOK. Where, well, I would say book talk, , where these readers are talking about, , wanting to [00:03:00] leave politics out of reading.

[00:03:02] Kelsey: And they're putting up these posts about like, why are people all of a sudden putting politics into reading? Like, can't we just leave the politics out of reading? , and so people are like responding with, , political videos because. I mean, I'm, I'm curious to hear your take on this because this is the first time you're hearing this before I get into it.

[00:03:22] Amanda: I just, I think I need some clarification. Like what do they mean by books suddenly being political? Because I feel like books have always been political to some degree. And are they talking about it in the sense of like. Banning books, are they talking about it in terms of like the content of books themselves being political?

[00:03:40] Amanda: Like, I need some. 

[00:03:41] Kelsey: I think that people were maybe talking on book talk around like political issues and books. And then people who mainly read for entertainment 

[00:03:54] Amanda: were like, 

[00:03:54] Kelsey: why are we bringing in politics? 

[00:03:57] Amanda: You know, , so I 

[00:03:58] Kelsey: think that's where it. [00:04:00] Okay. Landed or started so 

[00:04:01] Amanda: folks were like inserting political things into conversations about books.

[00:04:06] Kelsey: Yes. I think so. I started. 

[00:04:09] Amanda: Okay. Okay. And are, what are people saying? Like, I don't see what the, are folks just like all of our conversations about books should be only because the thing is books talk about social issues. They talk about political issues. You know, they dive into things like race and culture and identity.

[00:04:28] Amanda: So, Mm hmm. I'm, I'm, Amanda's just confused. I'm just, I'm a little befuddled over here. Like 

[00:04:37] Kelsey: I don't get it. So I think I saw, yeah, people just complaining about like, not wanting to talk about politics when they're reading books. Okay. Really? That kind of means either you're really not reading anything that.

[00:04:51] Kelsey: And you'd have to be like reading very fluffy stuff to not encounter any social issues or any political issues or [00:05:00] even Issues that are framed in a different way like in fantasy, right? There's oftentimes like this underlying rebellion happening against the government and the government is doing really shady Things or killing people or something like that like that is political, right?

[00:05:15] Kelsey: Yeah, but maybe people are just not really Seeing the connections between real life in those stories. I'm curious, but, , but yeah, like it, it's an inevitably political. Yeah. You can't get away from it really. 

[00:05:31] Amanda: I guess like, 

[00:05:32] Kelsey: I don't know. 

[00:05:33] Amanda: I can understand the sentiment of considering everything that's going on in our world, wanting a space where you can kind of decompress from all of that and just escape.

[00:05:43] Amanda: Like I understand the escapist. element of reading for sure. But I think to. Assume that you can always fully like prevent social and political issues for becoming part of the conversation seems really naive [00:06:00] and unrealistic, like at some point those things are going to be coming into the conversation.

[00:06:05] Amanda: You don't have to talk about it all the time, but it's definitely, it definitely has a place in these conversations and to get upset when that happens is surprising to me 

[00:06:16] Kelsey: to say the least. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, that's just a conversation that's happening on BookTok right 

[00:06:23] Amanda: now. Okay. Well, thanks for the update.

[00:06:26] Amanda: I've also, it's gotten me thinking now about some of our previous episodes and yeah, even when we're talking about like romances or like fantasy and romanticy, like we're still talking about issues that those books bring up and that they touch on. , and so yeah, that's surprising to me.

[00:06:42] Amanda: Yeah. And unfortunate because I think that's also a really great thing about reading. It gets us to like, yeah, reflect, question and, consider what's happening around us versus just like blindly going along. So, 

[00:06:55] Kelsey: yeah. And I think that I do identify mostly as like, I read for [00:07:00] entertainment kind of reader, 

[00:07:01] Amanda: but 

[00:07:02] Kelsey: All of my books sure they can be entertainment.

[00:07:05] Kelsey: It's like today we're talking about kindred, right? And that was like a super heavy topic and book which I typically don't read but in My books there are still themes of these issues, right? And they're easy to point out too. So it's not something, I don't know. I enjoy it in that way.

[00:07:23] Amanda: , 

[00:07:23] Amanda: yeah, 

[00:07:23] Kelsey: because I also still am thinking about these important issues, but in an entertainment way. , but 

[00:07:31] Amanda: yeah, I don't know. I don't think it has to be like an either or I definitely think it can be like a both and, and I think it's just a more expansive. way of interacting with text and also just like viewing the world, , instead of like looking at everything as like an either or, like this dichotomy, like, if it's this, it can't be that, you know?

[00:07:48] Amanda: And I think people just have a tendency to want to put things into these compartments, silos, et cetera. But, , yeah, to your point, the book we're going to be discussing today is definitely. Those are the folks [00:08:00] on that you were listening to on book talk might not be particularly happy with our conversation today.

[00:08:05] Kelsey: Oh, 

[00:08:06] Amanda: it's pretty social and political. So, , yeah, I guess we can just get started. , so this is our second, like I said, our second literature Quidditch episode for February, and I'm going to start off by telling folks why I had Kelsey read this book. So I had Kelsey read Kindred.

[00:08:26] Amanda: By Octavia Butler for several reasons. One, as we've said earlier in this month, it is Black History Month. And so both Kelsey and I were really conscious of picking books that were by black authors and Octavia Butler is a phenomenal and very well known, highly regarded black female author, , 

[00:08:46] Amanda: Whose work was a local. Is she from Seattle? Yeah. 

[00:08:50] Kelsey: Or at least she, the end of her life was in this area. Yeah. Oh, 

[00:08:55] Amanda: I actually didn't know that. Thank you. Someone told me today actually. [00:09:00] Oh, yeah. I did not realize she ever was like in this neck of the woods. I was in like Lake Forest Park 

[00:09:05] Kelsey: and I was like, what?

[00:09:06] Kelsey: Oh, whoa. 

[00:09:07] Amanda: Yeah. So, yeah, even though she has, , passed on, like her works are still incredibly popular. And so I wanted, , Kelsey to have a chance to read this particular author, 'cause I don't, have you read any of her other books? Have you read like, I haven't yet. Okay. So great. So those of them 

[00:09:23] Kelsey: though, I 

[00:09:24] Amanda: have, yes, 

[00:09:24] Kelsey: because the parable, like all of those books sounded really great and I'm, yeah.

[00:09:29] Kelsey: So curious about it. 

[00:09:30] Amanda: Yeah, I'll be curious to hear what you think about the parable, the parable of the sower But so that was the reason number one is that I wanted Kelsey to have a chance to like Interact with this particular author To even though it is historical fiction It does have like this sci fi Element to it and I know Kelsey is next necessarily a sci fi person, but I thought again presenting Historical fiction in a way that was like slightly outside of the norm might be more intriguing for her [00:10:00] versus like a more standard historical fiction, , text, especially because, , this book is technically a past and present book.

[00:10:08] Amanda: Granted the present in this book is the 1970s because of when this book was written, but, , it is switching between the past and present. So again, it was like, okay, kelsey is not going to be stuck in the past for the entirety of this book. , So I also like, , kept that in mind and then, , I just wanted to get Kelsey's perspective and feedback on this book.

[00:10:26] Amanda: We already read a book that dealt with, , enslaved peoples with horse and that did not go well. Kelsey did not enjoy that. And so I was curious to get her feedback on another story, another narrative. That had to do with slavery in it and to see how she responded. , and lastly, this book was recently made fairly recently made into a series on Hulu, which I also watched and enjoyed.

[00:10:50] Amanda: And so I thought it would be cool for Kelsey, if she did enjoy this book for her to also be able to go and check out the series as well. Wow, so those were my reasons. Well, thank you. [00:11:00] All of those many reasons. So yeah, Kelsey, why don't you summarize it? And then I'll find out if this was a lit it or quit it for you.

[00:11:09] Kelsey: Okay. . So let's see if I can get through this. The main character is named Dana dana is from the 1970s and it's 1976. She is married to a white man in 1976. And all of a sudden she starts feeling like dizzy and confused.

[00:11:28] Kelsey: And she ends up. waking up in a time period that is not her own. She does not know this exactly, , right away, but she wakes up and is in this place where this boy, this little boy is drowning and the mother is there trying to help him . And she helps resuscitate him, , and saves him from the water.

[00:11:50] Kelsey: And then, , she kind of notices, you know, these people talk different and, , this man comes up to her and, , scares her [00:12:00] and, , she ends up popping back into, , her timeline. And so, , again, at this time, she doesn't know that she's going to a different time, but, , that was the first instance that this happened and this continues to happen in her timeline.

[00:12:15] Kelsey: It's like over a span of like a couple of days or hours. It's a really short timeline compared to what she ends up living in the, , timeline in the past. And so she ends up being transported like, , I don't remember the exact amount of times, but like maybe five or six times. And, , she's kind of transplanted.

[00:12:37] Kelsey: At different time periods of that little boy's life. And every time she gets transported, something is wrong with the little boy who ends up growing up. His name is Rufus. She calls him Roof throughout the book. And, , she realizes along the way that this is one of her ancestors and. And that it was him and then this other woman, [00:13:00] Alice, who she meets, , when she's really young as well, like Rufus and, , realizes that these two are going to be her ancestors.

[00:13:08] Kelsey: , and that these ancestors are from the early 1800s. I think the first time that she realizes, , what year it is and asks Rufus what year it is, it's 1815. And so, , Rufus lives on a. , plantation. He is a white boy and, , his father is the plantation owner and I can't remember his name. , not necessarily important, but, , he's, you know, supposed to be called master or sir.

[00:13:36] Kelsey: , anytime that Dana interacts with him, , And so basically the story is about her like going back and forth in time and essentially kind of acclimating to the life back in the 1800s. , at one point her husband does go with her back in time and he ends up getting stuck for five years and has to live there [00:14:00] for five years because the only person that's being transported back and forth is Dana.

[00:14:04] Kelsey: And , at the time that she transported back, he wasn't near her and wasn't touching her. And so, , basically she gets to know like the. The, , family that owns the plantation who are also her ancestors, but then also the enslaved folks who are having to work at the plantation, , whether that's in the fields or that's in the house, , she goes through quite a bit of like challenges throughout her time there and the time frames that she ends up staying there vary.

[00:14:42] Kelsey: It can be like. At one point, I think she's there for as long as eight months and another time she's there for like hours. So, it just depends on the time that she ends up, , time traveling. , so, both Rufus and Alice, her ancestors, grow up and she essentially is part of their [00:15:00] lives throughout their history, , together.

[00:15:02] Kelsey: And so, she just learns, like, what happens to her ancestors. , Back in time. , at some point, Dana realizes that when she is either scared for her life or is just really scared.

[00:15:14] Kelsey: She ends up going back to her time. And so there's a time where someone is beating her. , that she goes back to her life and there's a time where she's being whipped by the main plantation owner. , there's another time where she actually slits her own wrists in order to let go back to her time.

[00:15:31] Kelsey: And then, , the final one, , The final time that she goes back to her time, she, , is with Rufus and he ends up grabbing her. , but she's already moving back in time and he ends up not going with her and neither does part of her arm. And so she ends up in the hospital. And that is actually the very beginning of the book.

[00:15:52] Kelsey: And, , the very end of the book, , explaining what happened to her arm. So it ends with, , Rufus dying and she [00:16:00] knowing she knows how she, he died slash she was his murderer. 

[00:16:04] Amanda: , yeah. So. I would say one quick thing just to clarify too. So yes,, Dana can leave the past or, or leaves the past whenever, as you said, she's feeling threatened, her life's in danger.

[00:16:15] Amanda: But the other thing to know is that Dana is only called back into the past whenever Rufus is in danger. So the very first time that Kelsey was telling you at the beginning of the story, when he's drowning in that river, , that he was very young. And that's the first time Dana is called back. And then I think the next time he like accidentally set his curtains or he purposely set his curtains on fire cause he was mad at his dad.

[00:16:36] Amanda: And so he's about, you know, potentially burn the house down and die. And so he's afraid and Dana's called back. So that's kind of how the time traveling works in this book. , when she gets called back and when she's able to go back into the present, so just wanted to point that out too, for folks. And then at the very end of the book too, , the reason why she.

[00:16:56] Amanda: Is able to go back into the present is because once again, her life is in danger. Cause , [00:17:00] trigger warning, , Rufus is trying to rape her. And so she ends up in the process killing him and is able to go back, but yeah, her arm is, is left behind. , okay. So as you can probably already tell, this book is pretty heavy, pretty deep, has some pretty intense content in it.

[00:17:15] Amanda: But before we get into all of that, , Kelsey, and we have not discussed this at all. So I haven't, we have not. Oh, I'm so nervous. Was this book, was this book, a lit it or a quit it for you? My palms are literally sweaty over here. 

[00:17:34] Kelsey: . , I definitely have like some criticisms of the book, but, , I would say it's a soft lid it.

[00:17:44] Amanda: Oh my gosh. Okay. Now I can like rest easy. Yeah, I 

[00:17:47] Kelsey: know. I didn't even tell you anything about like, I had no idea 

[00:17:51] Amanda: y'all. Okay. Okay. Okay. So then let's start with, cause I know you're gonna have criticisms as you said, but as always, let's start with perhaps some things [00:18:00] that some general things that you did like about this book.

[00:18:02] Amanda: Okay. 

[00:18:02] Kelsey: Mm hmm. , so I did like the time traveling aspect and the fact that it, was to her ancestors. So it wasn't just to like a random place in time with random people. It was actually, , to her ancestors, which I thought was really cool. Like I wish I knew. More about my ancestors and like, wish I had, , experiences or at least got to see them or know them.

[00:18:29] Kelsey: , so I thought that aspect was really cool. , what else did I like? The parts I did like, , I guess was the storytelling of the the lives of the people, the whole point of the book really is to show you The way slavery was, embedded in people's psyches, , in that time.

[00:18:48] Kelsey: So you would think that someone from the 1970s would have no, like, would really fight it and not fall in line essentially with what is going on with slavery in [00:19:00] the time, but it is actually very easy for Dana to just kind of acclimate herself. , and consistently she gets like kind of put back in her place by these, , white plantation owners or white people in general.

[00:19:13] Kelsey: , and so this fear is really embedded in her. , throughout her time in the 1800s with her ancestors. , so I thought that was powerful. But yeah, I think those are the things that I really, that I enjoyed or appreciated about it. 

[00:19:30] Amanda: Yeah. I actually, one of the things you said, , really resonated with me when you were like, yeah, it would be so cool to have the opportunity to go back and know my ancestors.

[00:19:39] Amanda: And I think especially, and we talked about this very briefly, I think with horse, especially with enslaved peoples, like there were very few records kept. And of course, because my ancestors weren't allowed to read or write, there also like, aren't, a lot of written narratives or journals or anything.

[00:19:55] Amanda: And so I think, especially for African Americans in this country, having that opportunity [00:20:00] to go back and like, know your people and know your roots is such a luxury and doesn't exist for most of us past a certain point. And that for me, especially when reading this book was, , yeah, I would just say it really resonated with me and made me think a lot about.

[00:20:18] Amanda: how much of my history and my ancestry, I'll just never know, you know, there are like white people who can trace their lineage back to like the Mayflower, you know, and I'm like, I further, even further, you know, like medieval Europe or whatever. And I'm like, I will never be able to do that. And most people who have my Heritage and ancestry will never be able to do that.

[00:20:38] Amanda: And what a loss, , to not have that. And so I remember, thinking about that a lot when I was reading this text. So I'm glad you pointed that out. , and then the part that you mentioned about her acclimating, I, yeah, and they bring that up in the book too. , but I I do wonder, I don't know if wonder is the right word because you did kind of touch note when you were talking, which is she does try to [00:21:00] resist, right?

[00:21:01] Amanda: She, especially at the beginning, like she does try to put up a fight , and leave and tell folks that she doesn't belong and speak up for herself. But when an entire system is both set up to be in opposition to you and also has the means, all of the means to keep you in line at some point, Fighting is futile and especially as a woman on her own in that time period, , after so many beatings, after so many whippings, after so much manhandling, you know, there's like, what else can you do aside from just like, put your head down and hope to make it to the next day.

[00:21:35] Amanda: , and I think sometimes it's easy for us in the present to be like, Oh, well, like, why didn't they make this choice? Or like, why didn't people try harder? And it's like, sure. It's a luxury that we have. You know, look back on, on a situation you can never fathom. , cause I thought about it too.

[00:21:49] Amanda: Obviously you want to put yourself in the shoes of the main character. Like, what would I, what would I do in this situation? Right. If I'm coming from 2020 point, it's like, damn, I would just want to survive right to the next day [00:22:00] and maybe see if I could find a way to escape, et cetera. , but yeah. Okay.

[00:22:05] Amanda: Well, I know you have things that you didn't like about the book. 

[00:22:08] Kelsey: Well, I was curious, , about, , I don't know if you read anything about this, but I didn't get a chance to yet. But, How much of this was like her was like a history of somebody's and how much is just like made up I'm how much it 

[00:22:26] Amanda: was like biographical from like her family.

[00:22:28] Amanda: You mean? 

[00:22:28] Kelsey: Oh, well, I don't know Was it her family or was it like that? 

[00:22:32] Amanda: Hey, you know, I personally haven't done a lot of like , reading about the writing of this book so that I don't know. I remember when I first read it and I have the book behind me. , there are notes like author's notes afterwards, , but I haven't looked at them in a while.

[00:22:45] Amanda: I do know that she did a considerable amount of research and we didn't say this earlier in this episode, but this particular plantation in the book was set in Maryland just to give folks a sense of, Oh yeah. Time and place. , and I know that she did a fair amount of research. I do want [00:23:00] to say, and again, folks don't quote me on this, but when I read the author's notes a while ago, it was based on an actual plantation, , and an actual, , , that was actually in, in Maryland.

[00:23:13] Amanda: So she did very much ground it. And, and reality and like actual history and it wasn't completely contrived in that sense. , obviously, you know, , slavery was a very real thing, but she did base a lot of it, I think, , in actual like historical accounts. 

[00:23:29] Kelsey: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was curious about that.

[00:23:32] Kelsey: Yeah. , because there's so much detail about these people's lives, , in the novel. And so I was curious, like, oh, did, you know, like at the end where Alice actually hangs herself, , Was that something that was true? Could we know like, 

[00:23:47] Amanda: yeah, well also to just cause that's another thing to like, one of the things that you never really hear about is, how common or how often enslaved peoples did take their own [00:24:00] lives.

[00:24:01] Amanda: , and to think about like the horrific existence that many of them lived, it would seem like. An option, perhaps, , what's the word I'm looking for? Just a better option perhaps than getting up the next day and going through what they were going through. And I think there's a quote in the book.

[00:24:18] Amanda: , what is it? Oh, there's worse things than being dead. And, it's not something you really ever hear people talking about. I've never really encountered it that much in the books that I've read about this time period. And it does make me wonder, , cause I know during like the middle passage when people were being shipped across the ocean that some folks would, you know, jump overboard when they had the opportunity to rather than, you know, get shipped, , all the way to the United States or to the Caribbean.

[00:24:43] Amanda: , but yeah, I think that's a whole nother part of slavery that we don't talk about a lot, know a lot about. , yeah. Yeah, totally. I think I, well, I guess one question I have for you is like, how did the, so this book along with the underground railroad by Colson Whitehead, which I've [00:25:00] mentioned, I think I've mentioned it already this, , this month in one of the other episodes.

[00:25:04] Amanda: , but both of these books, I think really stood out to me when I read them because like I said, they don't shy away from the. The horrors of slavery, , and the beatings and the whippings and the raping, like , it's constant. Like whether it's Alice, whether it's Dana, whether it's other enslaved individuals, families being torn apart and folks being sold.

[00:25:25] Amanda: And I just wonder how that landed for you as you were reading it. What was your response to that? 

[00:25:30] Kelsey: Sometimes when I read these kind of books, I definitely disassociate a little more than when I'm reading a fantasy book, right?

[00:25:37] Kelsey: Because they are so heavy. And so I guess that was my response to this content. But, , yeah, it's just. It's horrifying, right? Actually, initially I was like, God, Dana has it like pretty easy is like, what's kind of my thought for a while. And she, she did essentially, but then at some point she [00:26:00] gets taken out to the field because Rufus is mad at her.

[00:26:03] Kelsey: Right. And then she like passes out because she couldn't take the constant whippings and the constant push to, , do more And so I, I appreciated that that was in the book too, where there were different jobs that people were doing and like some were way worse off than, than others.

[00:26:23] Kelsey: And then thinking about, so when Alice grows up, right? Rufus is like in love with her or Has this infatuation or obsession with her and ends up like raping her and that's when? Dana comes back into his timeline or their timeline and then the husband which it wasn't legal for blacks to get married back then Alice was married to this guy Isaac and then Dana allows them to leave and Tells Rufus to lie about what happened so that Isaac and Alice can get away [00:27:00] But in the end, like they don't get away and then what happens to those two is just, is heartbreaking and it's like they talk about how Isaac had his ears cut off and you're like, yeah, like our history is so fucking violent and I find it weird. Like when people, You know, this isn't everybody, but like some people talk about how, Oh, that's in the past. That's in the past. Right. And, , These people just felt it was okay to brutalize another human being because of their skin, right? And things like that are still in our psyche where there are racist folks who would do awful things to people of color just because of their skin or make racist jokes or make racist comments to people or, want more for themselves and think that they need, they should have more and rather than people of color, like they're, that's still in our psyche.

[00:27:58] Kelsey: And I think that not [00:28:00] to face that because it's so violent is just Ignorance, we have to face it because if we don't like, then we're not going to understand like why our psyche is the way it is. Right. And so, it was awful, like reading about those things.

[00:28:16] Kelsey: But also It was the reality for a lot of people, and I, didn't have really a critical lens. , over Dana, but I know that some of the reviews I'm going to read for one star reviews, like they did.

[00:28:30] Kelsey: , but like, I just don't think I could ever put my, if I really put myself in that situation, I'd be like scared to death. Like what the fuck would I do? I'm not going to like, 

[00:28:40] Amanda: you know, and so yeah, I would, I definitely, yes. Absolutely. I think it's so easy again to sit in our cushy little armchairs and judge these people and the choices they're making.

[00:28:52] Amanda: But I wanted to go back to what you were saying about the lingering, lasting impact that, , these historical [00:29:00] events still have on us to this present day. And I was reading a little bit, , about the book prior to the episode and, you know, at the very end of the book, Dana loses her arm. There is a part of her that is forever, physically changed by her experience.

[00:29:15] Amanda: , in enslaved times and slavery. And that was a very deliberate choice made by Octavia Butler because she wanted people to see that, you know, in this case, it's the 1970s, the mid 1970s. Now it's 2024, but that those scars and that brutalization, that violence didn't just disappear. Like they are lingering.

[00:29:35] Amanda: , , , what is the word I'm looking for? Like lingering, the lingering aftermath of all of those things is still, is still present in our society and our politics in the psyche, like you were saying, and the collective consciousness of people of color, who's. Ancestors experienced those things like it didn't just disappear.

[00:29:52] Amanda: It wasn't just like we snapped our fingers and it's over. Okay, it's done. It's in the past. And I think it's one reason why people want to revise [00:30:00] history or want to sanitize it or forget about it. , because if we face up to what happened then, then we also have to turn a critical lens on what's happening right now and how a lot of those things are still being perpetuated in different ways.

[00:30:13] Amanda: Right. But we're still kind of seeing those patterns of behavior and thought. And so I like that Octavia made it really clear, like just because this happened in the past, just because it was, you know, a couple of centuries ago, just because it was a couple of decades ago, , doesn't mean it's like one and done and what happened to all those individuals, both the people who are perpetrating the violence and the people who were on the receiving end, like both parties, you just.

[00:30:37] Amanda: Have lasting, , I don't know why I'm keep on blanking on the word that I want to use, like lasting after effects, right? Impacts, , consequences on what happened. And I really like that she made that clear. 

[00:30:48] Kelsey: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, that, , as a choice. as a literary choice. 

[00:30:54] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:30:54] Kelsey: , yeah. And 

[00:30:55] Amanda: I, and I, I also like that she didn't shy away from the fact that so [00:31:00] many of the people in the black community and the African American community today, have mixed ancestry because of slave owners impregnating , the enslaved women on their plantations and on their property.

[00:31:11] Amanda: Like that happened. Like on my mom's side, like on her, on her father's side, my grandfather's side, like we know exactly who it was. Right. We know exactly which sister, was raped and like that whole, like it's crazy. And you know, people are like, Oh my gosh, like how horrible. I'm like, this is again, , first of all, wasn't that long ago.

[00:31:29] Amanda: Let's be clear about that. It wasn't that long ago. And again, I I'm just so thankful that she, along with folks like Colson, my head, even like 20 more, like they don't shy away from the harsh realities. Of what actually was going on during this time period. And I just like, yeah, it made me like this book all the more, even though it made it harder to read it.

[00:31:51] Amanda: Also, I very much respected her choices and feel like it's what makes it such an important text for people to read. 

[00:31:57] Kelsey: Yeah. , the thing I did not [00:32:00] like about the interactions with Rufus and Dana is just, I mean, and also it can be

[00:32:07] Amanda: like 

[00:32:08] Kelsey: explained away, rationalized rationalized, , for her, for Dana's experience, but yeah, she realized she was going back to Rufus, right.

[00:32:17] Kelsey: Every time. And, , so maybe she felt like some sort of connection with him, but time and time again, he. Showing her that he was a man of his time and, , a product of his upbringing, right? And the political system and social system that was in place at the time, , but she does not want to believe it, right?

[00:32:39] Kelsey: She wants to believe that he's doing some good and maybe she's made a difference for him. But I think it was the third time that she went when , he had raped Alice, like she's giving like kind of all these excuses for him. And I didn't like that aspect, , where she was very sympathetic , to him.

[00:32:57] Kelsey: I didn't really like that. And so she still takes [00:33:00] care of him and all these things. And some of the things it's like, she's forced to write because of the father and because of Rufus and also because she is kind of tied to that place because of him. Right. And like just getting, she asked him to send letters for her.

[00:33:17] Kelsey: Back in that time. She can't go to the post office and mail herself once she doesn't have money. But to like, as a black woman, she wasn't able to do those things. And so she had to rely on him in some ways. , but even down to like, she calls him roof. , and you'll see that in some of the, , , reviews too, but like, why was she feeling so close to this man who was violent against her and against the people that she cared about?

[00:33:45] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[00:33:45] Amanda: I, I agree in that I remember the first time, I read this book that I was so frustrated with her. Yeah. Multiple times. I was like, why are you still giving him chance after chance? Why are you still so convinced like that there's [00:34:00] good in him and that he's going to make the right choice even after he's continued to prove, like prove him, prove you wrong time and time again.

[00:34:07] Amanda: And I think perhaps now that I've had a longer time to like reflect on this book and think about it, and I'm also older now than when I first read it, I think part of it is at that point, I think at that point. She has realized that Rufus is her ancestor. And I think there's also some part of us that like, when it comes to our relations, regardless of who they are, right, whether it's our immediate family, a cousin, whatever, we want to see the good in them.

[00:34:28] Amanda: We want to believe that they're good. We're connected to them as in this very deep way. , and that there are blood relatives. And so I think there's. Part of that, like she, she kind of needs him to be redeemable, I think for herself. 

[00:34:41] Amanda: , 

[00:34:41] Amanda: so I think 

[00:34:42] Kelsey: absolutely not. 

[00:34:44] Amanda: Yeah, exactly. And I think also historically black women have been forced to carry so much and to be the burden bearers both within our communities and outside of them.

[00:34:59] Amanda: And so I [00:35:00] think we see that happening with Dana where throughout this book, she is bearing the brunt of so much. She is constantly looking out for everyone else, constantly caring for others. And that is a common narrative for black women, , up until today, right up until the present. And so while it's incredibly frustrating to see it also.

[00:35:19] Amanda: I think rings really true for a lot of, of women and for black women who are reading this text. So I think that also while frustrating, it's like, no, like that is quite believable, unfortunately. And it's a big part of how we were conditioned and are still conditioned. So yes, it's frustrating, but I, I don't know if, if Octavia Butler had written her differently, while it would have been like, I think really rewarding as a reader.

[00:35:47] Amanda: I think it makes the statement that Octavia Butler was trying to make is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. I think it was a very deliberate, , , choice and it wasn't just like, Oh yeah, I hadn't thought about it. 

[00:35:57] Kelsey: Yeah, no, I'm sure it was. [00:36:00] Yeah. And I'd be curious to hear like interviews or see any sort of her thoughts around that particular point.

[00:36:08] Kelsey: The other thing, , I didn't really understand. Or I didn't like her husband, Kevin, like there was nothing like, he seemed like a, a device, you know, rather than an actual, , like important character. Like he just seemed like, I don't believe their connection because they're there. It's never like shown at all.

[00:36:31] Kelsey: , and then. When he ends up going back in time, he kind of acclimates just fine to this time period and there's weird, I don't remember any of the quotes, but there's like weird things he says to her that are a little like. What are you saying? Or like, are you, yeah, it was just, I was curious about that.

[00:36:51] Kelsey: And then he ended up there for five years. And then, he did. Become kind of the savior for her.

[00:36:57] Kelsey: , yeah, I mean, he has a 

[00:36:59] Amanda: white privilege or [00:37:00] can use his white privilege to give her like a bit of protection, , and freedom when he's present with her. , but yeah, I, I, , agree to a certain degree. I think it was, again, a very, deliberate choice that Octavia Butler made her husband in 1976, a white man.

[00:37:18] Amanda: And then we all share this interracial, I don't want to call it a relationship because it wasn't a relationship, but this interracial interaction between Alice, who also, I don't think we've said this, , , earlier, but Alice Greenwood and her mother at the beginning of the story, they are free black women.

[00:37:33] Amanda: , and then ultimately. Alice essentially becomes enslaved, , on the Wayland, which is Rufus's last name, Wayland Plantation. So I just wanted to clarify that as well. But, , so I think she very. Deliberately wanted to give the reader, , this kind of parallel. Okay. Like the, here's this like interaction, interracial situation happening in the 1800s.

[00:37:56] Amanda: Here's this interracial marriage happening in the 1970s. What is [00:38:00] different? And what is the same can, can these two people kind of a white and a black person have a successful, healthy relationship? What impacts does our very racist past and present have on a couple? You know, , in the, in the present quote unquote.

[00:38:16] Amanda: , so I do think it is, it is a device, I think to a certain degree. And also I think she wanted to set up that, I don't even come comparison contrast. I don't know if that's entirely what I'm trying to say, you know, and for, to get us to reflect on that, like, okay, given our history and all the things that have happened to us, how do we navigate this or how would a couple, an interracial couple navigate this?

[00:38:38] Amanda: And especially in the 1970s, which is not that. Long after the civil rights movement. Yeah. Right. After interracial marriages were legalized in like 1968 or 1967. Right. , I, I think especially at the, time that this book was published, you know, that would have been even more. , front of mind.

[00:38:58] Amanda: Yeah. [00:39:00] Yeah. 

[00:39:01] Kelsey: That's fair. And also, was this the first book that Octavia Butler, , no, I don't, I don't know her 

[00:39:07] Amanda: publishing history. I don't, I don't 

[00:39:09] Kelsey: think so. I don't think it was one of the earlier, but it's one of the early ones for sure. Yeah. I'm 

[00:39:14] Amanda: also going to look. So I keep, you can keep talking. I'm just like, let me see.

[00:39:19] Amanda: I want to look. I have, for those of you who are not watching this on like YouTube, I have the book in front of me. So this book was published. It was published in 1979. , and then the version I have here was republished in 2003. , but it doesn't have the 1979. 

[00:39:35] Kelsey: It was Yes. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm

[00:39:40] Amanda: Again, parable The parable. Er. I also have that behind. Oh, did you look it up? Okay. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, I was just curious. Yeah, I think, you know, books are a reflection of or on their time and their place and mm-hmm . Yeah. I think writing in this. This book in the aftermath, or I don't want to say aftermath because that makes it sound like it's a bad thing, but [00:40:00] after the civil rights movement, right, and, , just like the shifting political and social landscape at that time, I think it would have been even more impactful at that time.

[00:40:09] Amanda: Mm hmm. 

[00:40:10] Kelsey: , there was something else I was going to say about all of that. Oh, yeah, Alice's story really, cause Alice ends up being her ancestor and she like goes in knowing that she's like, Oh, that's Alice and that's Rufus. But this is how they ended up getting together was this forceful way of Rufus was infatuated or obsessed with her and wanted her for himself.

[00:40:30] Kelsey: And so he essentially uses Dana to get Alice into his bed willingly. But essentially , Alice is forced into this relationship with him, has several children, only to survive, I think. Right. And then at the point where. He's trying to control Alice and her moves. Mm-hmm . Alice tries to leave and escape with her, , final child or children.

[00:40:57] Kelsey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm . And is caught mm-hmm . [00:41:00] And, beaten in all of that. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . And then he. , pretends to sell the children because he's like angry with her and wants to, you know, control her or continue to control her and has realized that , he can't because she wanted to leave still.

[00:41:18] Kelsey: And , That's where he sends the children to his, actually to his moms or cousins or something. His, his aunts, 

[00:41:25] Amanda: I think. Philadelphia or something. 

[00:41:27] Kelsey: , and then, but Alice doesn't know this. She thinks her children were enslaved. And so that's when she. Hangs herself and kills herself. And so that was the, the story and the, , wrap up with, , Alice 

[00:41:41] Amanda: I mean, like I said, this book is essentially just kind of one tragedy. After another, which again is kind of the story of slavery, right? Just this never ending realization of people by white people . , and I think again, like Octavia [00:42:00] Butler. she's committed to telling this story. And so she committed to telling the whole story and wasn't worried about, , you know, protecting anyone's sensibilities.

[00:42:08] Amanda: She was just like, this is what it was. And again, she wasn't making up these encounters, like the fact that, you know, slaves were having their ears chopped off or being, whipped to within an inch of their life or being raped continuously, by, the slave owners. So, like I said, I think it's such an, it's a difficult, painful story to tell, but it's one that needs to be told.

[00:42:30] Amanda: And I feel like she, I feel like it could have been, especially cause there's the science fiction element. It could have come across as, I don't know, those two things, when you think about like I don't know. Slavery and time traveling. You're not necessarily seeing that as a story that works and I think it worked really well.

[00:42:48] Amanda: And I don't read a lot of science fiction and , that never, I don't know, it never took me out of the story. I didn't also spend a lot of time thinking about like the mechanics of it because that wasn't the point of the story either. , and so I think she did a really good job [00:43:00] of kind of seamlessly blending those two elements, the historical fiction and the, and the science fiction together.

[00:43:05] Kelsey: , , 

[00:43:05] Kelsey: Someone was telling me that it was, it's deemed science fiction, like the, the story or the book, it was like. That doesn't make sense to me. Cause the science fiction part of it, it's never explained. It's just kind of this like thing that happens. Right. And so it felt to me more like magical realism rather than science fiction.

[00:43:25] Kelsey: So. And to your point too, like I also was not thinking too hard about how she's doing this or why she's doing this or why this is happening to her. It was just happening and that sometimes stories are like that. But I think that was one criticism of folks who did not like this book was like, you never understand like why this is happening.

[00:43:47] Kelsey: It's like, yeah, that's, it's not the point of the story. , it's just a device to get back and forth. , and then. Oh, there was something else about, , in the end, Octavia Butler does kind of [00:44:00] talk about the lives of these people because 

[00:44:04] Amanda: Dana 

[00:44:04] Kelsey: goes back to the, , plantation or where it was. And then, , they couldn't find,

[00:44:10] Kelsey: , grave sites or anything nearby. The history was, , a bit lost. So some people were like, why , wasn't there any information about the people that were there? I was like, well, it possibly wasn't. That information wasn't available. Right.

[00:44:24] Kelsey: , but I mean, I guess she could have made something up, but that was one other criticism from people. Oh, okay. Yeah. 

[00:44:32] Amanda: I feel like that's a really both a minor criticism. And yeah, like I've said multiple times, a lot of maybe the history of the owners of the plantation of the white people on the plantation, there probably would have been more documentation.

[00:44:42] Amanda: But yeah, for like the enslaved people, like even free black people, like there probably wouldn't have been a ton of documentation. About who they were and where they went and what happened to them. So, , I think that's perhaps speaking to a little bit of naivete on the part of the person who wrote that.

[00:44:59] Amanda: Actually. A [00:45:00] particular review perhaps. , but yeah. Was there anything else about the book that you wanted to, to touch on before we? Moving to our final section, 

[00:45:09] Kelsey: I mean, , talking about Rufus's mom, , maybe thinking about, gosh, what was her name? Was it Margaret? It's like Margaret lady. I don't remember.

[00:45:21] Amanda: Okay. 

[00:45:23] Kelsey: Well, I'm onto something here. , Just thinking about like her story as well, because every person like kind of represented like a possible, , encounter from back in that day, right? And so the story of his mom is like she, she kind of was erratic and all over the place like in the house and like, , really got on, , people's cases about random things and, , couldn't leave things alone and really didn't like Dana because her son Rufus really liked her.

[00:45:55] Kelsey: And then eventually at some point Dana leaves again for her own [00:46:00] time and the mom ends up having some children or miscarriages or something or still and then just wasn't right after losing the children and then went to Her sister's in a different city and then, , eventually does come back when the plantation owner dies.

[00:46:21] Kelsey: So, anyway, just to like add that into the mix. , it was an interesting, , part of the story. Because I mean, I 

[00:46:27] Amanda: think the other thing, one of the other, I guess narratives, that was taking place during, , slavery is like the women, of the slave owners, because yes, they have the privilege of being white, but they were also women.

[00:46:40] Amanda: So in their own way, we're considered, , you know, second class citizens who had very minimal rights. And so, , it does dive in a little bit. Let's, let's call her Margaret. They do dive in a little bit into. , that, part of slavery and that, , , gosh, I really am just words are not coming to me tonight.[00:47:00] 

[00:47:01] Amanda: I know. , but yeah, really diving into a little bit at least what that experience was like being the white. Wife , woman of the house on a plantation and, , yeah, navigating this kind of weird in between space where yes, you have some privilege, but you're also facing your own form of an oppression, but then you also have, especially for the enslaved people who worked in the house, usually the wife had 

[00:47:27] Amanda: the run of the house. Right. And she was in charge of those enslaved individuals. And so you do have also this like modicum of power as well. And you'll use it and you'll use it. Exactly. Right. Like if you're feeling 

[00:47:39] Kelsey: some way, that's the power that you can. 

[00:47:42] Amanda: Yes. We'll press 

[00:47:43] Kelsey: upon. Yeah, exactly. 

[00:47:44] Amanda: And if you want to lash out at someone or take out your own frustration at not having your own voice be heard or.

[00:47:50] Amanda: Yeah. So there are so many. , bizarre and unhealthy, relationship dynamics, happening at any given moment. Yeah. You know, especially if we're looking at a [00:48:00] plantation in particular during slavery. Yeah. , and that is something that she does, as you mentioned, she does dive into a little bit with 

[00:48:06] Kelsey: her storyline.

[00:48:06] Kelsey: And then also thinking about, like, as a woman, like, I don't know. It just doesn't seem like it was monogamy for men. Wasn't really a thing in his throughout history. Right. And so, , you just like watch your husband rape these other women. And, , and then, yeah, you're just kind of this. 

[00:48:27] Amanda: Have their like offspring right in the house or like in the fields or whatever, knowing your husband has sired all of these other children, , who depending on the man may or may not treat them well to, you know, 

[00:48:41] Kelsey: , I think just, 

[00:48:42] Amanda: yeah, yeah, 

[00:48:43] Kelsey: he, he ends up selling.

[00:48:46] Kelsey: His children, because, , 

[00:48:48] Amanda: the 

[00:48:48] Kelsey: ones that he sired with the enslaved women. Yeah. Yeah, so. Just so much. All of it's just 

[00:48:55] Amanda: layered. Just layered upon layer of misery and destruction [00:49:00] and devastation and terror and, yeah. And I, and I think when we talk about. Slavery, like those are the words we should be using instead of like, Oh, well, that was a pleasant time.

[00:49:11] Amanda: And you know, enslaved folks were like, well taken care of. Like, it's just like, Oh my God. You know? And even in the nineties, when I was in school, like that was the story, , we were getting , in our history textbooks, , trying to 

[00:49:21] Kelsey: make it come back to you. It's just. 

[00:49:24] Amanda: Yeah, exactly.

[00:49:25] Amanda: Just wanting to like whitewash and sanitize it. So books like this, I just want to, you know, make sure that we're continuing to promote them and getting folks to read them and talk about them because it's hard, it's difficult, but, , we can't run away from those things and I really appreciate your reading this book.

[00:49:41] Kelsey: Thank you. 

[00:49:42] Amanda: Thanks for having me read it. 

[00:49:44] Kelsey: , it's definitely was better than horse. So I 

[00:49:48] Amanda: figured since this book on light course was written by a black woman. Yes. That's part of the 

[00:49:53] Kelsey: reason 

[00:49:54] Amanda: I have a, I have a better response to it, but okay. Before we get to our literally the [00:50:00] best, literally the worst, , what would be your final recommendation then for this book?

[00:50:04] Amanda: Would you recommend this book, Kelsey? 

[00:50:05] Kelsey: Yes, I would recommend this book. I would also give a content warning to people. If you are not in a good like headspace, , or mental space for your own sake, , probably not a good time to pick this up. If you are, , curious about the history of slavery or even just getting a little bit of information on how it might've been for people.

[00:50:29] Kelsey: , I think this is a really good, , option and, , I enjoyed the, the back and forth, even though, , you spend way less time in the present, you spend most of your time in the past. That's true. Okay. , so yeah. Yeah. I think it was worth, worth reading for sure. 

[00:50:45] Amanda: And of course, I would obviously recommend it as I recommended it to Kelsey for the same reasons that Kelsey, , just listed and, you know, also just Octavia Butler is a very talented writer.

[00:50:56] Amanda: And so if you haven't read any of her work, , this is a great example of , her skill [00:51:00] as an author and could be a great place to start, , if you haven't read any of her works previously. So, yeah. All right. So, as always, I'll give a little blurb for folks, , for whom this might be their first, , lit it or quit it episode.

[00:51:14] Amanda: Kelsey is going to read some one star reviews of this book from Goodreads. I'm going to read some five star reviews, , of this book from Goodreads in a sec, a segment of our episode that we call literally the best or literally the worst. So, , Kelsey, would you like to begin or would you like me to begin?

[00:51:33] Amanda: , I can go, 

[00:51:34] Kelsey: so I have a mixture of longer and shorter ones, so, , FYI. All right, this first one, is from Unplugged, , DNF at 65%. Oh boy, where to start without giving away too many spoilers. I hate the main character who is basically completely fine with slavery and rape.

[00:51:55] Kelsey: The only person, , more clueless than her as possibly her white husband, who is a [00:52:00] huge idiot when it comes to racial issues, despite marrying a black woman in the 1970s, , him being a dipshit in 1815, paraphrasing, , they beat their slaves. I was planning on skipping over the rest. to see if she gets better or starts to care about what she's seeing around her.

[00:52:20] Kelsey: But every time I skipped forward, she was more concerned about the health and well being of her rapist, slave owning great grandpa than she was about anything else. Her being a dipshit to her great grandfather, paraphrasing. Did you rape that girl? Well, let me get you cleaned up. , that was an example of, , quote, there is zero likeable things that are allowing me to continue reading this book.

[00:52:45] Kelsey: Also the end is at the beginning, sort of like a prologue. So I already know how it ends. So whatever, dropping this, going to pick up something. With a more empathetic cast. 

[00:52:56] Amanda: Wow. Oh my gosh. What a [00:53:00] blistering review. , I, I think the only thing I agree with is that, yeah, like Kevin is kind of an idiot in some ways.

[00:53:08] Amanda: And I think that, again, I think that's part of it. It's like, he has a lot of. Ignorance as a white man, and there's a lot of things that he's clueless about. And, , yeah, he needs to educate himself. And I think that's true. I think she's being way too hard on Dana though. And I think there's a lot of both like 21st century privilege coming into that review.

[00:53:27] Amanda: Yeah. And yeah, also just like a lack of. Empathy and also keeping in mind like Rufus is both her great grandfather and also essentially keeping her alive Like she is only surviving in this space largely because of him. So it's also like Yeah, 

[00:53:44] Kelsey: it's definitely comes down to survival. I think and I think To when we go back to it, in a book like this, an author is making very specific choices, , to have a point come across.

[00:53:57] Kelsey: And so I think, although Kevin [00:54:00] really annoyed me as well, , I think it was the point. 

[00:54:03] Amanda: Yes, exactly. Yeah. And I remember thinking, just as a quick aside, I remember thinking when I read the book, I'm like, Ooh, are they going to make it? , I don't know if Dana and Kevin are going to last. I wondered the same thing.

[00:54:14] Amanda: I thought he was just 

[00:54:15] Kelsey: going to go and like be gone. Yeah. 

[00:54:18] Amanda: So we'll see. I could imagine them getting a divorce in the future. After the end of this book. Yes. 

[00:54:23] Kelsey: After her experience, like totally. Yeah. 

[00:54:25] Amanda: Just being like, wow, we are not reacclimating 

[00:54:28] Kelsey: back to the seventies. Yeah. We need that epilogue. 

[00:54:31] Amanda: Yes.

[00:54:31] Amanda: Yes. Someone can do the fanfare. All right. My first five star view. I do not know how to say this person's name or handle. It looks like Linus. , but here we go. Kindred. Oh my fuck, where do I even start? Definitely one of my favorite reads from this year, and definitely one of the most fucked up things I've ever read in my entire life.

[00:54:54] Amanda: This book is not for the faint of heart. It is literally every black person's literal nightmare. [00:55:00] It will make you sick. It will make you think it won't leave. Think it won't leave you. It will stay with you. There's worse things than being dead. Written in 1979, Kindred remains Octavia E. Butler's most popular work until date.

[00:55:14] Amanda: Kindred reveals the repressed trauma slavery caused in America's collective memory of history. In an interview in 1985, Butler suggested that this trauma partly comes from attempts to forget America's dark past. Quote, I think most people don't know or don't realize that at least 10 million blacks were killed just on the way to this country, just during the middle passage.

[00:55:36] Amanda: They don't really want to hear it partly because it makes whites feel guilty. End quote. , so I, I shortened their review, , just cause it was really long, but, , yeah, I, I completely agree with everything they said. I really think it's important that people just like, , reckon. with our country's very dark, bleak history.

[00:55:56] Kelsey: Yeah. Okay. , this one's really long. So [00:56:00] FYI, I don't think I'm going to cut it. All right. And they're very, very critical. Oh boy. I'm bracing 

[00:56:08] Amanda: myself. I'm like holding onto the table. Here we go. 

[00:56:11] Kelsey: This is from 

[00:56:11] Amanda: Matt. 

[00:56:14] Kelsey: It troubles me and bothers me deeply that this book is so popular.

[00:56:18] Kelsey: This book reads like an apology for slavery. Others have called out that this book does a lot of telling and very little showing. For me, the biggest thing it shows is how easily the protagonist becomes conditioned to an accepting of slavery and anti ideal in the 1970s. A spineless, gritless woman who sucks up to being treated like a slave, , and being treated like a worthless woman.

[00:56:43] Kelsey: I am not surprised even Alice calls her what she calls her. She is addicted to her roofie, an abuser, a slave holder, a manipulator, a man child, and keeps making excuses after sickening excuses for her addiction. , literally [00:57:00] many parts of this book reads like the story of an abusive victim who is reportedly told to leave their partner but stubbornly still clings.

[00:57:08] Kelsey: And What was the outcome of clinging to abuse?

[00:57:11] Kelsey: Predictably bad. , okay. I am going to cut this. Okay. , this book was so seriously wrong. Disturbingly gaslit. It just doesn't get any better. This guy, 

[00:57:23] Amanda: I just wanted to include people. So here's my thing. Here's my, for all of the people who are like, Oh my gosh, like she, she acclimated too quickly and she was too forgiving.

[00:57:33] Amanda: I'm like, What was the alternative? Like, what would you, what could she do in that situation? If she ran away, she would have gotten caught and either beaten or killed. Like, that's the whole point. It's like, there was no out. If there was, do you think all of these millions of people would have stayed in slavery for as long?

[00:57:50] Amanda: Like, there wasn't an easy out. So many people died trying. And some people did ultimately, obviously, escape to the north. But, it wasn't like they could just up and leave anytime [00:58:00] they wanted. Which is the whole point of the story. And the fact that so many people are like, Oh my gosh, why didn't she just leave her?

[00:58:07] Amanda: Why was she just like, she was trying to survive as like so many, sorry, I'm like getting worked up. Like so many people in that situation were, and it just comes across as so, I don't know, close minded and shallow and ignorant to be like, well, why didn't she come? And 

[00:58:23] Kelsey: so it was, I do. Yeah, I don't agree with the way that he talks about abusive relationships and clearly has no like context of like what it actually means to be an abusive relationship.

[00:58:36] Kelsey: And although like slavery in general, yeah, it was all abusive. It was a massively abusive 

[00:58:41] Amanda: relationship. 

[00:58:43] Kelsey: People died because of the way they were treated, right? Yeah. It wasn't a choice that people were making. Exactly. That's the problem. And it wasn't a relationship either. That's not even the right word.

[00:58:53] Kelsey: Yeah, it's not. She was like being called back to Rufus. Right. And while I do think [00:59:00] her nickname for him is kind of weird and she kind of infantilizes him as he grows up. , I don't like that part of the book, but , but yeah, like you're saying like there was not a choice.

[00:59:11] Kelsey: Slavery isn't a choice. 

[00:59:13] Amanda: Right. And we see her trying. She literally slits her own wrists to leave. Yeah. Right? Like, what more do you want this woman to do? Like, she's trying to send letters to her husband when he's trapped back in that time. Like, she is trying. , so it just, yeah, it just seems overly simplistic to have that, , response.

[00:59:29] Amanda: Okay. Next up. . . Kevin, Kevin, Kevin Kuhn, I think. K U H N. Okay. , okay. I highly recommend reading this book anytime, but especially during Black History Month, as it is this month. I will also warn that it is an emotionally devastating story. Kendrick follows Dana Franklin, a modern day, 26 year old female black writer through a series of time travel episodes that pull her into a pre civil war plantation located in Maryland.

[00:59:59] Amanda: While the novel is [01:00:00] horrifying, dealing with whippings, suicide, rape, and slavery sales that separate families. I read that Butler decided to lessen the violence and brutality that she read in historical accounts to allow the story to be more approachable. A shuddering revelation. What intrigued me right away is that Butler could have written a straight up powerful critique of American history and the continuing issues of racism and bigotry.

[01:00:25] Amanda: But she chose to dive deeper by having Dana be married to a white husband in her modern life. In addition, Dana is intricately. Intricately connected to an ancestor, Rufus, the white son of a plantation slave owner. Rufus has a dysfunctional attraction to a black woman who was born free, but enslaved for attempting to help her slave husband to escape North.

[01:00:48] Amanda: Dana knows that Alice must give birth to a daughter by Rufus to allow Dana to exist in the future. But it's these complex interracial relationships that allow Butler to investigate all [01:01:00] types of subtleties. a theme. The resulting exploration of power dynamics, guilt, and trauma make the book a much more effective examination of sexism, bigotry, and racism, And it's wake and allows it to be a powerful lesson for today's issues.

[01:01:17] Amanda: A well told, emotionally difficult, but necessary read. Butler's Tale is science fiction at its best, using the improbable to expose and magnify humanity's past atrocities, and reveal why learning from the past is even more important today. Five. Thank you so much, Kevin, for so beautifully and so concisely saying why this book is needed and so perfect.

[01:01:43] Amanda: Oh, , yeah, I agree with everything he said. There was something in there that we hadn't, , Oh yeah. The fact that people are like, Oh my gosh, this book is so horrifying. And this is just like the tip of the iceberg. Oh yeah. I bet. There's even stuff in the underground railroad [01:02:00] that I was like, Oh my God, I can't believe this actually happened to another human being.

[01:02:04] Amanda: And like, yeah, this wasn't out of the ordinary. , and the fact that she had to scale it back so people could feel like it was believable and could like, feel like this is a book that they could engage with is just like, yeah, a whole, a whole other thing. 

[01:02:17] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[01:02:18] Amanda: Yeah. Okay. Let's do one more each. Cause I think we've both.

[01:02:20] Amanda: That sounds good. 

[01:02:21] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[01:02:22] Amanda: Yeah. , 

[01:02:22] Kelsey: okay. This one again from Goodreads is from Ruby Truesdale nothing about this book was enjoyable. I was just rage reading to see if Rufus would die. There was no lovable characters. Dana and Kevin's relationship was bland and unconvincing, so there was not really any stakes for the reader to want her to return to her own time.

[01:02:42] Kelsey: Also, the ending sucked. This book followed my personal pet peeve, which is when authors use sci fi fantasy concepts without any attempt to add an explanation or wider magic system. It was just a convenient plot device. I've taken away nothing from this book [01:03:00] other than the strong desire to never read another book about slavery.

[01:03:04] Amanda: Oh my, this honestly, this sounds like it was written by somebody who Usually reads like fantasy, , or romantic, and it was just like not ready for what they were about to like . I think that's very possible. Yes. The only thing 

[01:03:19] Kelsey: I agreed with was, yeah, Dana and Kevin's relationship. Yeah. It's being bland. Yeah. I did want her to go back to her time, but only so the things that were happening in the, in the past would stop happening, but I knew that it was always only for like a couple of pages or so. 

[01:03:39] Amanda: I also that, that just reminded me of the thing from the, , review I just read is that what folks also are not thinking about when they're writing their reviews, the one star is that.

[01:03:48] Amanda: Yeah. Dana has to make sure that her ancestor is born. So that is part of her thinking. We didn't really talk about it. Like she has, yeah. And she has to make sure like Alice, unfortunately, and Rufus get together. And it's one of the [01:04:00] reasons why she kind of helps that happen. And I feel like folks have kind of just set that aside in some of the reviews, like that's also another factor and why she's behaving.

[01:04:08] Kelsey: Yeah. Or it's just also like you, you can't change the past, right? Like it, because Dana literally wouldn't be where she's at. She wouldn't be alive. This wouldn't be happening if she didn't end up being born. And the only way she was being born, it was all these things happened. So it's like a, 

[01:04:26] Amanda: what came first, right?

[01:04:28] Amanda: Like, 

[01:04:28] Kelsey: yeah. 

[01:04:29] Amanda: So yeah. Well, it's like, you know, the conundrum that always comes up with time travel, but yeah. Okay. Last one for me is from Justin Tate. This is a short one. Okay. A unique look at slave era America. Thanks to a time traveling twist should be shelved with the classics. riveting from the first page and doesn't let up.

[01:04:46] Amanda: I'm always a fan of throwing in a little sci fi, but here it really, really works. Most novels on this subject tend to look at race relations from one time period. Nothing wrong with that, but there was something wholly shocking and eye opening [01:05:00] about having these characters hop from a modern 1970s lens to pre civil war society.

[01:05:06] Amanda: This is my first Octavia. E Butler novel, but I'm already a huge fan. Which of her books should I read next? That is a good question. But yeah. Okay. I know this was a late episode recording for us and we are both of a long day, Kelsey, more so than, than I shower. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So. Really quickly before we do all that, , I just reminder you can find us on Instagram at lit vibes only underscore podcast.

[01:05:39] Amanda: You can find us on YouTube or Tik TOK at lit vibes only podcast. We had a lot of, we dove into a lot of heavy things today and had some strong opinions early sided. So if you would like to respond to those, if you have your own thoughts to share, , please do so either comment on our Spotify episode or head over to our socials and.

[01:05:57] Amanda: Let us know. Have a chat with us. , I'd love [01:06:00] to like dive into this, but, , and rate and review. Yes. Oh, you're so good. Don't forget that. Yes. Rate and review us and then, , come back next week for more. So, , on that note, we will see you next Monday. See you next Monday. 

[01:06:16] Kelsey: Bye. 

[01:06:16] Amanda: Bye.