Ep. 18: Lit or Quit It: Fourth Wing

Join Kelsey and Amanda as they kick off the New Year dissecting the romantasy hit Fourth Wing, diving headfirst into dragon mayhem, sizzling romance, and no-holds-barred critiques. They discuss everything from the book's world-building and characters to its intense romance and smut. They also touch on fan theories and speculate on what might come in the next installment!

Follow us on TikTok & Youtube @litvibesonlypodcast and on Instagram @litvibesonly_podcast. We'd love to hear from you!

See you on Mondays!

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Lit Vibes Only!
• 0:37 Our Socials
• 1:44 Chit Chat w/ Amanda & Kelsey
• 4:55 Current Reads and Book Discussions
• 9:00 Fourth Wing Summary
• 29:47 Book Discussion
• 1:05:17 Final Thoughts and Recommendations
• 1:18:05 Literally the Best and Literally the Worst
• 1:32:42 Closing Remarks and Social Media Plugs

Transcript

Ep. 18: Lit It or Quit It: Fourth Wing
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[00:00:00] Amanda: A quick note before we begin. While Kelsey and Amanda enjoy debating for your entertainment, we want our listeners to know that Lit Vibes Only is an inclusive community that honors all tastes and respects all readers. Enjoy this episode! 

[00:00:20] Kelsey: Welcome to Lit Vibes Only, where we lit the shit out of books we love and hate. I'm Kelsey. 

[00:00:26] Amanda: And I'm Amanda. And Happy New Year! This is our first episode. Oh my gosh, is it? Yeah, this will be our first episode. January of 2025. First Monday of January. So we're so into the new year. Yeah. We're kicking off a whole new year with this podcast.

[00:00:42] Amanda: Welcome. Welcome. If you're new, welcome back. If you're returning, we're so excited you've joined us. And before we get into our very first 2025 lit it or quit it episode. We want to remind folks where you can find us on socials. So you can find us on Instagram at lit [00:01:00] vibes only underscore podcast on Tik TOK at lit vibes only podcast and on YouTube also at lit vibes only podcast, 

[00:01:09] Kelsey: which those are updated.

[00:01:11] Kelsey: Those videos are updated. That is the one thing I struggle with the most. I'm like, what the hell I forget about YouTube. And it is the easiest one to. Oh, because it can go directly from descript. 

[00:01:23] Amanda: Oh, perfect. Okay. Which is our podcasting software that we use for those scripts also because we don't, I feel like we don't interact as much on YouTube as we do on Tik So it's easy to forget that like people are over there watching 

[00:01:37] Kelsey: people are interacting.

[00:01:39] Kelsey: It's kind of cool. Okay. On YouTube. 

[00:01:41] Amanda: Yay. I was just having a conversation with someone and they were saying that they actually. prefer to watch their podcasts versus listen to them. And I was like, Oh, interesting. Well, we have a whole YouTube channel just for you.

[00:01:53] Amanda: That's kind of cool. Yes, exactly. But you know, we're like, we're building our, our [00:02:00] following. We're getting new folks and, , Kelsey had a little celebrity moment last night. 

[00:02:09] Kelsey: Well, Amanda, , had a fun Christmas party last night with a bunch of friends and I was included in that. Of course, but, , , but there were a lot of people there.

[00:02:20] Kelsey: I didn't know, , who were from like your work, right. And, , , people, so people hadn't met me yet. They know Amanda really well, , cause they worked together and so they were meeting me for the first time and it was just really interesting how all of that like played out. I was like, Oh my God, I guess.

[00:02:41] Kelsey: Hi. People were like coming up to you and we're like, Oh my 

[00:02:46] Amanda: gosh, you're Kelsey from the podcast. I was like, yeah, that's me, that's me. I was like, literally one of my friends who listens to this podcast, hi EJ, Hi! Walked in and was like, is that Kelsey? I was like, that is, that is me, Kelsey. I [00:03:00] heard you guys across the 

[00:03:02] Kelsey: room, and the room was so loud, but I heard you guys across the room, I was like, Who's saying my name, but it was funny because they're just like, Oh my gosh, that's Kelsey.

[00:03:11] Kelsey: And I was like, Oh, that's so weird that you can go get an autograph. And then your friend, Nicole, , ran and sat next to me and she's like, hi, I'm fangirling right now. And I was like, really? I was like, me? Such a cool 

[00:03:26] Amanda: experience. 

[00:03:27] Kelsey: It was really 

[00:03:28] Amanda: sweet. Not just listening, but like truly enjoying our content and following along and being super supportive.

[00:03:35] Amanda: It feels really good. I 

[00:03:36] Kelsey: know it was so sweet and I hope that we just find more people like them. Yeah. Enjoy the podcast because. Yeah. That's, that's what we're here for. That's the 

[00:03:44] Amanda: whole point. We want to build a community. Get folks excited about reading and have an outlet for the two of us because we were just talking like I've had several people say , Oh, like I just love your connection and [00:04:00] your banter like on the podcast.

[00:04:01] Amanda: Is that how you guys actually are? And like, yes, this is 100 percent us. I don't know how to be anything else. Like what it would also, I mean, these podcasts fake. Yeah. Yeah. Like we're putting on a performance. Oh yeah. It's very performative. Like, no, this isn't actually what our conversations sound like.

[00:04:19] Kelsey: And sometimes they're really, really intense and sometimes they're kind of chill . Exactly. Have you noticed yet? We'll just be all over the place going on tangents and like 

[00:04:30] Amanda: talking over each other like I just did and all that good stuff. Yes. I've done it several times already. Correcting your calcisms that literally just happened before we started recording.

[00:04:40] Amanda: What did I say? Artistic liberations. Artistic liberations. What I was trying to say. What is the word again? Liberties. Liberties. Liberties. Liberties. Liberties, artistic liberties or the creative license, but well, sometimes I'll edit them out of the episode, not all the time, sometimes, depending, and I'm like, I want to, like, make sure I'm [00:05:00] keeping track of these because at some point we do need to publish this.

[00:05:04] Kelsey: Which, , Kelsey isms did you catch this year or catch this month? Yeah. In her 

[00:05:09] Amanda: episode. Exactly. What are you reading right now? Oh my gosh. 

[00:05:16] Kelsey: Well, I just finished fourth wing, like the middle of the week last week. I'm so glad that I read it like right before. The only thing that stresses me out is like, what if I don't like it?

[00:05:26] Kelsey: And what if it's sluggish for me. What if my reading takes longer than I think. , but I started like two weeks before recording this and, , I happen to really enjoy it and it kept me going. So I, , actually I'm rereading it. 

[00:05:45] Amanda: Okay. Well, that's interesting. Cause like, this is your literature.

[00:05:49] Amanda: Like this is the book you chose for me, but it's the first time we read a book together . 

[00:05:53] Kelsey: Mostly I'm rereading it again because of our podcast episode. I really didn't want to go into [00:06:00] iron flame and get some of those details mixed up with, , 

[00:06:03] Amanda: yeah, 

[00:06:04] Kelsey: today's episode.

[00:06:05] Kelsey: And I wanted to know and feel how I'm feeling from this book on its own. Yeah. You know, and not have further information. Yeah. So I am rereading that, but I'm also, , listening to bunny on audio books. So that one is so fucking weird. How far into it are you? , I guess so. Do you want me to say like what's happening or like, Oh, I was just saying like 

[00:06:31] Amanda: percentage wise since you're, , are you like halfway through?

[00:06:34] Amanda: Are you like a quarter of the way in? Let me look. Cause it's not a super little more 

[00:06:39] Kelsey: than halfway through. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't understand like, what can fucking happen? Like, like what can still happen? Yes. Like what's going to happen? That's so like, I have no predictions because she's at the point where she saw Ava again after becoming a bunny, essentially.

[00:06:59] Kelsey: Okay. 

[00:06:59] Amanda: [00:07:00] I mean, it's a super trippy book, , which is why I liked it. 

[00:07:03] Kelsey: You just have no idea what's actually happening. Yeah. She's always like tripped out and like, 

[00:07:09] Amanda: exactly. It's a very what's the word? I'm like, not destabilize. Like you just don't know what's what in that book. 

[00:07:15] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[00:07:16] Amanda: , cool. What are you reading?

[00:07:17] Amanda: I'm currently reading a very Amanda book. I'm actually my Kindle in front of me to make sure I get the name right. , it's killed for me, kill for you by Steve Kavanaugh. And I actually, you know, I'm not a huge tick tock person personally. Like obviously I'm on there for our, , podcast, but I was randomly scrolling through like tick tock videos for folks who are recommending thriller books a while ago.

[00:07:42] Amanda: And this one came up, so I put it on my TBR. And so far so good. I, the writing is not good. The writing is not good. And do you like it? And I like the premise, which is that there's these two women who both have had daughters who were murdered by [00:08:00] two different men who essentially got away with it.

[00:08:03] Amanda: , because of their power or their position and justice has not been served. So they're going to take justice into their own hands. And the premise is that they're each basically each going to kill the other person's aggressor for them. So like one woman is going to kill the guy who murdered the other woman's daughter.

[00:08:21] Amanda: Like that's the plan anyway. So we'll see how it unfolds. There's a third woman in the book as well. I'm not sure how her story all connects, but she's in there and she's been like attacked in her home and et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, the writing is not good. It's his sentences are. It's a very choppy book.

[00:08:36] Amanda: Like it does not flow well and they're poorly constructed sentences. Yeah. , but it's got like a, over a four star rating, I believe on Goodreads. I'm like, okay, I guess this is going to be like a really killer plot to make up for this poor writer. I know. Cause you know me, you know me, I love good writing and the only time I will forgive bad writing because like, for me, thrillers are my escape reading [00:09:00] the way that fantasy is for you.

[00:09:02] Amanda: , if it's got a really good plot, that's really fast paced and really twisty, I will forgive bad writing. Cause I'm like, I'm just escaping right now. I don't care as much. 

[00:09:10] Kelsey: So 

[00:09:10] Amanda: anyhow, long answer, but that's what I'm reading. 

[00:09:13] Kelsey: Cool. Cool. 

[00:09:14] Amanda: So yeah. All right. Are we, are we ready to dive into this book? 

[00:09:20] Kelsey: Oh yes. I'm like almost like as excited as ACOTAR, the ACOTAR episode.

[00:09:26] Kelsey: Oh yeah. 

[00:09:26] Amanda: Yeah. This book 

[00:09:27] Kelsey: is now my new personality. I guitar is of the past. Like I, this is how much I liked this book. And you're like, I know you're, you know, what, what do you know? Kelsey, what do you know? I know you probably hated it for many reasons. , and I could probably list them for you, but I absolutely loved it.

[00:09:49] Kelsey: , but anyway, we've only talked about what. You did like so far, but anyway, we need to do a summary first. I mean, no, no, 

[00:09:56] Amanda: no, no, no. You have to first tell us why you chose this book [00:10:00] for me. 

[00:10:00] Kelsey: Yes. So first. I was choosing for both of us because one of the reasons is because Onyx Storm, the third book, which apparently there's going to be five books, five or six books in this series.

[00:10:14] Kelsey: A 

[00:10:14] Amanda: rupture. 

[00:10:15] Kelsey: , The, it's coming out in January. Onyx Storm. And so, , so it's just great timing for us to read fourth wing. And I hadn't read fourth wing yet, but it was on, it's been on my TBR, , for quite a while. So I just, I wasn't sure that I was going to like it. , I've never read a dragon book before.

[00:10:37] Kelsey: , I have to like, think about that for a second, but I'm pretty sure I've never read a dragon book before. And, , I loved this experience of them. So. 

[00:10:46] Amanda: Okay. So it sounds like the primary reason was if it's on your TBR and Onyx Storm is coming out and it's like, okay, let's jump into this. Very timely. It's a 

[00:10:53] Kelsey: very popular book.

[00:10:55] Amanda: What is the name? The series is Empyrean, right? Yeah, the Empyrean series. [00:11:00] Okay. , right. So then I do the summary and then you ask me, right? The short answer, littered or quitter. Is it reverse? I think it's after the summary. I'm not looking at her. Yeah, I know. I'm not looking at it either. Let's do it that way.

[00:11:11] Amanda: I'll do the summary and then you can ask me. All right. I'm going to try and summarize this book. This is a long book. It's like almost 500 pages. So, , I will do my best. And, , again, not going to get into every little nitty gritty detail. , I would, or opinions or opinions or opinions. , I will say this.

[00:11:27] Amanda: I think I said this in one of the December episodes too. While it is not a requirement at all to read these books when you're listening to the lit or quitted episodes, I do think it's probably more enjoyable as a listener if you've read the books and can kind of also then give us your own thoughts and opinions on them as well.

[00:11:44] Amanda: So we love it when you guys read along with us. , so yeah, just my little blurb for that. So let's get into this book. So this story takes place in a fantasy world, obviously in the land of [00:12:00] Navarre. Navar is currently kind of locked in, or has been locked in a conflict with another kingdom called, and again, apologies in advance if I get these name pronunciations wrong, or if they're different from how you pronounce them, as always I read this and didn't listen to the audio book, , Peromeo.

[00:12:18] Amanda: And, , there is in the land of Navarre, there is a war college, Basquiat or Basquiat. I believe that's how Rebecca Yaros pronounced it in her interview, Basquiat. , I'm going to say Basquiat. And in this war college, there are four. For quadrants, so young people usually around the age of 20 or so can be conscripted into one of these four quadrants to basically have to be support.

[00:12:43] Amanda: Yes, have to be in order to help support the, the war effort, right? And so we have the healer quadrant, we have the scribes quadrant, riders quadrant, and the infantry quadrant. And their names kind of explain what their particular purpose [00:13:00] is. , and so the main character in this story is Violet Sorengale, and she is the daughter of General Lilith Sorengale, who's like this really famous, really well respected general who has done great things to, , keep Navarre safe and has worked her way up in the ranks, in the military ranks.

[00:13:22] Amanda: , her belief is that all of her children, so she has a brother and a sister, her brother has died. His name is Brennan and she has an older sister as well named Mira and they were and are both Dragon Riders. And so the expectation is that Violet, even though she really wants to be a scribe like her father, cause she loves reading and writing and history.

[00:13:46] Amanda: Her mother has decided that she is going to enter the writer's quadrant. One important thing, no questions 

[00:13:51] Kelsey: asked. 

[00:13:52] Amanda: Yeah, no questions asked. Like her mother is like no nonsense, not motherly in any sense of the word. And so her mother is like, you're going to join the [00:14:00] writer's quadrant because that's what my children do.

[00:14:02] Amanda: Full stop. Yep. And Violet is also, and this is important to note, she's small and she's frail. Her joints often like get sprained and twisted and things break. And so she's just a very, she's weak.

[00:14:14] Amanda: She's very frail. And we're reminded that of that many times throughout the book. So she's like, I'm not going to survive the writer's quadrant. It's like pretty bad ass people die all the time. , a huge percentage of the people who joined the writer's quadrant never leave, , because they die at some point in training.

[00:14:29] Amanda: , but her mother's word is final. And so the book starts off on conscription day where she is about to enter the writer's quadrant at this war college. She has to cross this very high, narrow bridge, essentially that's hundreds of hair, the parapet that's hundreds and hundreds of feet up in the air in order to even enter the college, right?

[00:14:53] Amanda: Or that quadrant, that part of the college. And a lot of people die. On conscription day, as they're crossing that [00:15:00] bridge, she ends up making it across. And in the process, she also makes a new friend. Her name is Rhiannon. I believe that's how you say that. And she is actually a black character, which I was very excited to see that.

[00:15:12] Amanda: Cause you know, know me. I'm all about like, yeah, I've never seen inclusion in these texts, especially books. So that was a great little addition. So they become friends, , pretty much right away because they help each other. Cross this parapet by swapping shoes. Anyhow, she gets there. And so one of the important things to know is that General Soren Gale and the folks in Navarre, , they were the winners, , in this conflict with, , Romeo.

[00:15:38] Amanda: Actually, no, they, it was an uprising that happened. , and why am I blanking? On the name of the region that they're from. 

[00:15:47] Kelsey: Oh, I couldn't tell you. I, 

[00:15:49] Amanda: I should bring it down. Anyhow, there was an uprising within Navarre and, , that was squashed. The leaders of that uprising and rebellion were killed [00:16:00] and then their children were killed.

[00:16:01] Amanda: We're essentially forced to join the writer's quadrant. And so there are essentially rebels children who are in this quadrant. And so a lot of them obviously don't like violet because her mother was one of the leaders in crushing the uprising and was responsible for the death of their parents. So it's another reason why she didn't want to join the writer's quadrant.

[00:16:23] Amanda: So she's got a huge target on her back. 

[00:16:25] Kelsey: Yeah, it was a tear in door 

[00:16:27] Amanda: tear in door. Thank you. Yeah, the tearish rebellion. Yeah, so she Joins his war college and almost immediately Has two enemies. One of them is Jack Barlow, who for whatever reason does not like violet and doesn't think that she belongs in the writer's quadrant and essentially has made it his mission to kill her essentially in a nutshell.

[00:16:52] Amanda: The other enemy that, , she encounters pretty much right away is Zayden Ryerson and he is, you [00:17:00] know, one of the wing leaders of a section. So he's a third year. He's been at the college for a while. He's like one of the best dragon riders, all the things. And he is also the son of the, like the primary leader of the rebellion.

[00:17:12] Amanda: And so Violet's like, yeah, he's definitely going to want to kill me for sure. 

[00:17:16] Kelsey: And she was told. And she was told by other 

[00:17:19] Amanda: people to, to, . Keep an eye out for him. However, someone else who's already in this college and who's a childhood friend of hers is this young man named Dane and Mira again, who is Violet's older sister, essentially told her, Hey, when you get to the writer's quadrant, like seek out Dane, he's there, he will like protect you.

[00:17:38] Amanda: Keep an eye on you do what he can to make sure you survive. And so that's kind of her circle. So we've got Rhiannon, who's like her new best friend, Jack, who's out to get her as they did, who may or may not be out to get her. And then Dane, who's her protector and essentially, , you know, over the course of, of the novel, she is in training to become a.

[00:17:58] Amanda: Dragon rider. So she's taking [00:18:00] classes. She has to, , kind of do this, these hand to hand combat, , matches and, , is constantly being challenged, right? , both physically and mentally. And also again, trying to make sure that she doesn't get herself killed. She ends up in Zayden's quadrant or Zayden's section in 4th Wing, which is why the book is called 4th Wing and, , you know, obviously she's not jazzed about this because now she's going to have to work closely with him and it's going to have to watch her back even more.

[00:18:27] Amanda: , and again, as the book progresses, , she starts to develop feelings for Zayden, one, because he's hot, which is repeated multiple times in the book, and, , two, because one night while she's out wandering, , collecting poisons because she's weak, and so she knows she can't win in these hand to hand combat situations.

[00:18:46] Amanda: Situations without an edge. She poisons her classmates before they're about to fight. And so one while she's out gathering some poison, , she sees Zayden with a group of other rebel children gathered late at night and [00:19:00] sees it. He's like looking out for them and trying to make sure that they survive.

[00:19:03] Amanda: And I think this kind of is when Violet starts to shift her perspective a little bit on Zayden and think like, maybe he's not so bad after all, seeing the way that he's, you know, , seeking to help others. So one of the things they have their 

[00:19:15] Kelsey: first interaction there too, 

[00:19:16] Amanda: and they have their first interaction because, , the dragons, the dragon writers have different powers and Zayden's power is like, he can control shadows.

[00:19:25] Amanda: And so when this interaction happens, it's at night. And he is very aware that literally Violet's hiding in the shadows, overhearing everything. So when she goes to leave, he's like, Hey, I know you were here and I know you heard me. So that's our first interaction. Fast forward. One of the big things that the dragon writers have to, or the writers have to do is they have to pass this test called the gauntlet.

[00:19:46] Amanda: And, , it's the only way that they're going to get access to the dragons to see if they're going to get chosen, which I'll get to in a second. So, , Violet again, due to her size and due to her frailty has to use her creativity and her, , her [00:20:00] intelligence to, yeah, her smarter intelligence to figure out a way to, , pass the gauntlet, which inevitably she does.

[00:20:07] Amanda: Some of her friends, , one in particular dies during this particular challenge and all throughout this book, folks are dying left and right. Like it's just murder and may, , but she passes the gauntlet. And essentially once you pass the gauntlet. You now have essentially access to the dragons. So they, , the, or they have access to 

[00:20:28] Kelsey: you 

[00:20:28] Amanda: or they have access to you.

[00:20:30] Amanda: The recruits are then essentially paraded past these dragons. So the dragons can take a look at them because the dragons have to decide. Do I want to bond with any of these human beings, , and have them be my writer essentially. So they walk by and, , they survive. Some of the kids get burned to a crisp and some of them don't.

[00:20:49] Amanda: And so that's, that's that, , after the little dragon parade, , they also 

[00:20:54] Kelsey: saw, did you want to touch on? Well. Well, 

[00:20:58] Amanda: I mean, there's a lot, so that's why I'm [00:21:00] like, this could go on for a really long time. So we'll get to the details in the discussion. So they, they do the dragon parade. , and then like the next stage is they essentially are released.

[00:21:10] Amanda: Hey, this reminded me a bit of the hungry games, but like they're released. Basically into this like area, this large kind of wooded area, and the dragons are out there. And essentially they're like, go forth. You have like a day, the dragons are out there, go and find your dragon. And either you're going to end up getting killed by one of them, or one of them is going to choose you and bond with you.

[00:21:29] Amanda: As Violet is wandering around the woods. Looking to see if there's a dragon, you know, that's going to bond with her. She comes across this tiny baby dragon called Indarna and she overhears Jack. So again, bad guy, Jack, and some of his little minions who have decided that they're going to kill this baby dragon because they're like, it's an abomination.

[00:21:47] Amanda: Dragons are supposed to be mean and scary and vicious. And this one's not. And so what's the point we're going to kill it. , of course, Violet overhears this. She goes to. Protect and Darna and, , in the [00:22:00] process of this interaction, Zayden shows up and, , he cannot, he cannot get involved in the interne.

[00:22:06] Kelsey: It's three 

[00:22:07] Amanda: on one. , , Violet defends herself. Well, As this is happening, all of a sudden, this very large, very scary black dragon shows up and basically helps fight off the rest of the dudes , kills one of them, right? Fries them to a crisp. And, , this black dragon is called Tarn.

[00:22:26] Amanda: And, , he's basically like the, the dragon, like the largest, scariest, vicious dragon. 

[00:22:34] Kelsey: And he wasn't supposed to be there, wasn't supposed to be there. He was 

[00:22:37] Amanda: not planning to bond with anyone this year, but, , he showed up because and Darna is very near and dear to him. And so long story short, he is very grateful to Violet for saving and Darna and ends up bonding with Violet and everyone's losing their minds because Violet is like this frail, delicate girl.

[00:22:57] Amanda: And she got the biggest, baddest dragon. Not only [00:23:00] that, but And Darna also bonds with her so now she's got two dragons and again, people lose their mind again because they're like, whoa, this doesn't happen. How come she gets to do drag? Oh, it's happened before, but a long time ago. No, I don't 

[00:23:11] Kelsey: think so. 

[00:23:13] Amanda: Yeah, did it not happen?

[00:23:14] Amanda: Okay, maybe not. You were reading it, so you'll know better than I am. Anyhow, so, they're all losing their minds because like, this is like, you know, unprecedented. And, , Essentially, she has her dragon, so now she has to learn how to ride it, right?

[00:23:28] Amanda: And because she's really weak, she is not good at staying seated on her dragon, etc, etc. Time passes, , the recruits are involved in more challenges, so they participate in something called like, The War Games. And again, it's really just about them learning how to ride their dragons, learning how to fight.

[00:23:48] Amanda: She, you know, Violet continues to do weightlifting and, and she's working with, you know, , Zayden and some other folks to improve her fighting skills. And it really is just this kind of like Rocky [00:24:00] montage, right? Where she's just you know, getting stronger and learning how to fight. That happens for a while.

[00:24:05] Amanda: And then finally, at some point, they are tasked with a challenge, which is you need to go to this outpost, one of our outposts and protect it. I think like there's, there's a threat to an outpost and we're sending you out there for a couple of days to make sure that, , you can defend it. I did skip the part.

[00:24:25] Amanda: Yeah. She like goes off to another outpost. She meets up with her sister briefly. They learn a little bit more about what life is like on the front because the magic that is protecting Navarre, like the wards are failing and they're trying to figure out why. And so a lot of dragon riders have been dying until it gives you a bit more insight into like the overarching issue in this world, which is.

[00:24:46] Amanda: The dragons have magic, they use their magic to kind of power these wards that protects the land of Nevar. For some reason those wards are not working very well anymore, dragon riders are dying, and, it's very likely that a lot of the recruits at the college are going to be [00:25:00] sent to , The front even before they graduate.

[00:25:02] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[00:25:02] Amanda: So that's a little bit of context there. Anyhow, go ahead. 

[00:25:06] Kelsey: Even before that, I think it's important to, they had a game they were playing even before they were sent to that outpost. 

[00:25:13] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:25:13] Kelsey: , and it's not necessarily, Important to like get super into it. But at some point she, her signet, which is her power from her dragon that she gets reveals itself in a moment where, , her enemy Jack , she ends up killing him and then Liam at the time gets injured, , in this whole thing.

[00:25:36] Kelsey: And she uses on Darna's powers to, , stop time. and save Liam from falling to his death. , and so, yeah, there are so many details that there's so 

[00:25:47] Amanda: many details. Like this is such a long book to summarize. , and it's, it spans a huge chunk of time as well. Like it spans a whole year. Yeah. So when you bond with a dragon, you have powers that manifest and it can take a certain amount of time.

[00:25:59] Amanda: Hers [00:26:00] finally manifest in that moment that Kelsey just described. And it's a really. Powerful power. , and she does end up killing Jack. She feels really awful about it. But in Darna, because she's not a fully grown dragon, her power, , she can essentially let people use it. , even if they don't have a signet, essentially.

[00:26:21] Amanda: , and so she's able to stop time. So like Liam, who is Zayden's friend and, , Violet's essentially bodyguard, , and friend and friend, , ultimately.

[00:26:31] Amanda: Yeah. , he's falling to his death. She stops time and saves him. Okay. So then essentially by the end of the book, they're sent out to this outpost as kind of, you think it's a part of a, like a war exercise, like a war game that they're playing long story short. It turns out that they have been set up.

[00:26:47] Amanda: Because the big secret is that there are these magical creatures, these like bad magic creatures called then in who are [00:27:00] individuals who have channeled power directly from the earth and it has corrupted them. So they're These very powerful, magical beings, but they are malicious and they have then created and powered these like pseudo dragons called Wyvern or Wyvern.

[00:27:17] Amanda: I don't know how you say that. 

[00:27:18] Kelsey: Wyvern. I think 

[00:27:19] Amanda: Wyvern. And, , they are the ones who are actively destroying wards and waging war on Navarre right now. And you find out that the tearish rebellion that those people who revolted several years ago are. , we're revolting because they knew that this was going on and that the land of Peromeo was getting wiped out and destroyed by these horrible creatures.

[00:27:44] Amanda: And Navar was like, that's not our problem. We're going to use our words to protect ourselves and like, screw everybody else. , so this is all new to Violet. Zayden's known about this, but this is all new to Violet. She feels like Zayden has lied to her. And is really upset. Also [00:28:00] at this point, her and Zayden have gotten together a couple of times.

[00:28:02] Amanda: So yeah, they're like fully in love, kind of skipped over that part. , but they went to lovers and anyhow, at the end, there's this huge, like not war, sorry, battle in this village, Zayden and Violet and their buddies are fighting against these Venon and Wyvern. And in the process, Liam dies. It's very sad, very tragic, but ultimately they are successful.

[00:28:26] Amanda: , by the end of the battle, , Violet is very horribly injured. She is like stabbed and poisoned by one of the venom. And so the book ends with them taking her to Tirandor and when she wakes up, she's like in this room and she's feeling a lot better. Several days have passed and she finds out that the person that has healed her is in fact her brother, Brennan, who she thought was dead, but it has in fact been like living in exile in Tirandor because he too found out the secret that the people in Navarre were hiding, was very upset about it and has kind of stayed to [00:29:00] help the effort.

[00:29:01] Amanda: That they're kind of the rebellion and his power is that he's a mender. , and so he bends and heals his sister and that is how the book ends. Yeah. This is like the 

[00:29:10] Kelsey: last line was welcome to the revolution or something like that. 

[00:29:15] Amanda: Something like that. , so that's essentially it. I'm going to apologize because I know that is a very long winding summary.

[00:29:21] Amanda: It is a very long winding book and so much happens in it. And so again, for books like these, I highly recommend that you read it. , you're not going to get a good sense of what this book is about from just that summary. 

[00:29:33] Kelsey: Yeah. And I think the thing that we don't really get into or can't get into a summary like this because the book is so long are all of the intricate relationships that are going on.

[00:29:43] Kelsey: , so yeah, that is really hard. So 

[00:29:46] Amanda: especially for a book like this where that's this length that is this detailed. Definitely highly recommend that you read it and then come back and listen to the episode. Yeah. All right, you got a question for me. 

[00:29:58] Kelsey: So [00:30:00] The short response of Littered or Quitted, Amanda, how do you rate this book?

[00:30:06] Amanda: , yeah, I would say that I would give it a soft quit it. , and I love that we're now adding nuances to our answers. But yeah, it's not a hard quit it, it is a soft quit it. 

[00:30:19] Kelsey: Okay, do I give my answer or we just ask you, right? No, yeah, Okay, and at the end we I mean, everybody already knows. 

[00:30:27] Amanda: Yes. 

[00:30:28] Kelsey: I've already said it.

[00:30:29] Amanda: All 

[00:30:32] Kelsey: right. Like, okay. So I know that you're going to have critiques about this book, but I really also at the end of all of that, where we've, we've come to, you know, our truths and we, we understand, yes, we think differently. I really also want to get into some of the theories, , around the fantasy aspect of this book.

[00:30:54] Kelsey: So, , keep that in mind for later. We'll 

[00:30:57] Amanda: do. We'll do. 

[00:30:59] Kelsey: So Amanda, [00:31:00] tell us, what are the things that you did enjoy about this book? Why was it a soft Quidditch instead of, 

[00:31:06] Amanda: yeah, the reason why I softened by Quidditch was for two reasons. One, , I did, even though at some point it does feel a little perhaps performative, but I'll take it regardless.

[00:31:22] Amanda: I did. appreciate the inclusion of diverse characters in this book. So as I mentioned, Rhiannon is a black character. We have, , Keaton, who is a non binary character. We have Jessenia, who is a deaf character. , the main character is obviously someone who struggles with her own, , kind of physical health.

[00:31:43] Amanda: And so I did appreciate that nod towards, Hey, I'm at least trying to include. Diverse characters who represent different identities. So I liked that. , and then honestly, my favorite part about the book and the reason why I didn't just kind of chuck it in the trash [00:32:00] was I did enjoy the dragons.

[00:32:03] Amanda: , I enjoyed. All the aspects of the book that I enjoyed had more to do with the dragons, the challenges, like when they were engaged in conflict, , like, and that's also again, just me as a reader, what I enjoy, , I'm not here for the romance. I'm not here for the smut. Like, I'm not here for like the poor writing, et cetera.

[00:32:22] Amanda: , but if you can give me an, even in divine rivals, which I was a hard quitter for me, as you remember, I enjoyed the last part of the book. Yeah. When they were like actually out on the front engaged in conflict, like the war effort. So I appreciated that part, , of the book and I did like the premise of the book as well.

[00:32:40] Amanda: Like the idea of this world where there's these Dragon Riders and the different quadrants that folks can be involved in and like how the War College was set up. I very much liked that premise. 

[00:32:51] Kelsey: Yeah. I thought it was well done, just like the building of the world. , and I don't think that the way that it was [00:33:00] done was just like, Oh my God, there's this giant chunk of the book where it's only world building and nothing is happening.

[00:33:07] Kelsey: So I felt like it was a pretty fast paced book. , and the way that she did it was. You didn't mention in the summary, but the book of Brennan where, , Mira, her older sister gives Violet the book that, or the letters that Brennan, their older brother gave Mira when she entered the, , college, , All this advice that he gave to Mira now Violet has, and some of that has that world building in it.

[00:33:36] Kelsey: , where it's like these important details, like we wouldn't know otherwise, unless it's like told to us. so yeah, 

[00:33:41] Amanda: I, well, since you've already mentioned world building, I have to jump in and say that I disagree. I thought that like, I, I liked the story of the However, the way in which Rebecca Yarros built the world was incredibly lazy because 90 percent of the [00:34:00] information that we get about like the history of the world and kind of the conflict and how things are set up and how they operate is from Violet reciting historical facts when she's stressed.

[00:34:12] Amanda: Like literally, and it's the same device used over and over and over again. It's like, Oh, I need to inform the readers about something. All right. Well, Violet's in a stressful situation. Let me recite some historical facts about like the rebellion. It just felt. So trite and silly. And it was like, okay, one time, maybe.

[00:34:29] Amanda: Okay. Multiple times throughout the book. Like this is the only way that you know how to deliver information. I did not enjoy that. 

[00:34:36] Kelsey: I mean, I could see that perspective, but, , it did not bother me. And I think if it was done once, it actually would have stood out as like, Oh, Violet doesn't actually do this.

[00:34:47] Kelsey: So. Why was it? It was just randomly put in there. Do you know what I mean? So as part of her personality, I just thought it was, , I was like, I don't know 

[00:34:55] Amanda: how to convey information on my own as a writer. So let me do it this 

[00:34:59] Kelsey: way. As [00:35:00] I was reading, I was like, Oh, okay. She's giving us this information. Like, yeah, no, it is really obvious.

[00:35:06] Kelsey: And again, for me, As like I'm reading for pure entertainment, it just didn't bother, it just doesn't bother me that kind of writing or that kind of choice, I guess. Yeah. 

[00:35:17] Amanda: I mean, again, , the delivery of it bothered me, the actual information that was like, Oh, this is cool. Like, I like the story of this world.

[00:35:23] Amanda: Like I thought that was interesting and like the history and how it was set up. I just, for me, it was just like, Oh, the delivery was like, poorly conceived. 

[00:35:31] Kelsey: But yeah, I, I agree that I do. I really liked the world. And, , even like thinking about, cause we got so much of the writer's quadrant, right. We understand a lot of the wider writers con quadrant, but then even when it like mentioned like the squat scribes quadrant, we didn't really hear much about the healers quadrant or what was the other one?

[00:35:52] Kelsey: Infantry. , by the way, great job with the summary at the, like putting the base together. That was well done because I would not even [00:36:00] like I've mentioned that information. , but, , it just seems like the society as a whole is like, they live and die. Clearly in the book by their rules, like there is no wiggle room, like even for the scribe scribe's quadrant, my God, why is that so hard for me to say?

[00:36:18] Kelsey: The scribe's quadrant. The scribe's quadrant. You can just say the scribes. They have to Wear specific hoods. They can't be identifiable. Like it's really interesting. , all those things to me. And then of course we know in the, , writers quadrant, like they literally do die when rules are broken or, , Just, you know, any challenger or next step in the phase of the college.

[00:36:44] Kelsey: , so yeah. 

[00:36:45] Amanda: Yeah, I, I agree in that. I, I liked the way that the world was set up. I liked the rules. I liked the quadrants, my one. gripe, and this came up in some of the reviews I read too. Okay. Some of the ways in which the writer's quadrant [00:37:00] operated seemed illogical or like antithetical to what they were trying to accomplish.

[00:37:04] Amanda: , the fact that you have a, A group of children. Well, young adults who are the children of rebels. You're going to put them in the quadrant that has the most influence and the most, , access to dragons and magic as a way to punish them. Like it would have made much more sense to put them in like the infantry.

[00:37:26] Amanda: Where they're just warm bodies that are you know, gonna get killed on mass, , in the battle and aren't valued for much until like that choice made zero sense. And the other thing that didn't make a lot of sense is like, you need writers. You need people who want to do this. Like you need people who are able to bond with dragons.

[00:37:43] Amanda: And the fact that. The writers quadrant was very much set up to like, yeah, killer be killed. You can kill your classmates at kind of at any given point. And it's just like, okay, well not happen. Like it seemed very directly in opposition to what they were trying to accomplish. And so the [00:38:00] logic for me was not there.

[00:38:01] Amanda: And again, when, and when there's like kind of those potholes isn't the right word, but when there's that kind of lack alignment, 

[00:38:07] Kelsey: maybe 

[00:38:08] Amanda: alignment, when it seems illogical, that will pull me out of a story. And look at this. Doesn't make any sense. This feels so contrived and seems like you're just adding this as an element because it like makes the stakes higher and therefore makes your story more interesting.

[00:38:23] Kelsey: , yeah, I don't think I have any reflections there. Like maybe, yeah, but again, does not bother me in these types of books. I feel like, yeah, no, it's not in a mystery book. That would bother me though. 

[00:38:38] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:38:39] Kelsey: So weird. 

[00:38:39] Amanda: I think like we were even talking about the book that I had you read for this month yesterday and you were like, Oh yeah, there's potholes, you know, there were actually 

[00:38:48] Kelsey: potholes though.

[00:38:49] Amanda: Yeah, there probably are. I haven't read that one in a while, but like, I think. When we're reading each other's genres, they're much more glaring to us. Like when I read fantasy, especially because I don't read a lot, I'm like, Oh my God, this [00:39:00] is so obvious. It's so bad. So I think it definitely, yeah, it definitely goes, , both ways for sure.

[00:39:05] Amanda: , I, this, this was a comment that I had about briefly about ACOTAR. It happened much more in this book. Well, all throughout this book and only happened a little bit in ACOTAR, which was, and again, this was This is, I'm not alone in this, because again, this came up pretty consistently in a lot of the reviews I read prior to this.

[00:39:27] Amanda: The dialogue, like, the language that they use is both, Very simplistic, relies heavily on swear words in order to convey emotion and meaning. And again, made them sound like my 21st century ninth graders versus people who are inhabiting what appears to be a like medieval esque world, right? It's not actually medieval, but it has that vibe to it based on like how they dress and like kind of how the world is laid out, et cetera, and even like the terms that they used for things like [00:40:00] scribes.

[00:40:00] Amanda: , So I found it very jarring because again, I'm like, why are they talking like this? And again, I don't read enough fantasy to know maybe this is more common and you could speak to like, maybe it is quite more common for folks to just be like, Oh my gosh, he's so fucking hot. I'm like, what, wait, what? It's also just for me, lazy writing, like there are so many other ways that you could describe someone's appearance.

[00:40:24] Amanda: And I don't know if she does it to be like relevant. I don't know if she does it because she's a poor writer. I don't know if she does it because she's like, no, this is just how you know, these teenagers, because they are 20 like talk to each other, but I just found it really silly. 

[00:40:38] Kelsey: , yeah. So like fantasy is not necessarily like period pieces, you know, so it's not necessarily like set in a specific, like, 

[00:40:48] Amanda: yeah.

[00:40:49] Kelsey: Time period that's different from now, but yeah, that is, , that can be common and you will, when we get to the second book of ACOTAR, , so you call it [00:41:00] ACOMAF, , there is more of that. 

[00:41:04] Amanda: And like I 

[00:41:05] Kelsey: mentioned in our ACOTAR episode, it was really to convey like relationships. And I, I was thinking about this more and more actually after our, , recording and I was like, Yeah.

[00:41:16] Kelsey: It actually felt intentional knowing what you go into in the second book. , and it's actually a theory of mine, but I'd have to share it later. Once you read Acoma, , because yeah, Tamlin never talked that way. He was not at all. Yeah. Amarantha was never informal, right? Like the people that. grew closer to Feyre were less formal.

[00:41:46] Kelsey: So, , yeah, I'm curious how Akhmeth will go, but yeah, the, , the dialogue, it was, it's pretty normal, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. Fantasy book. I would say 

[00:41:58] Amanda: If it was like an urban [00:42:00] fantasy and the year like 2035 or something.

[00:42:03] Amanda: , and again, like an academic setting, but okay, sure. Right. It's a bunch of like young adults, college kids running around talking to each other like that. I think, and again, I don't read a lot of fantasy. So in my mind, I'm like, Oh, but this is not necessarily connected to a specific time period. But I think that there's a certain, yeah, I don't know.

[00:42:20] Amanda: Level of, , what's the word I'm looking for. Like, I feel like the language tends to be more elevated. And even if you make the argument like, Oh, well, like this was a choice and she wants to like, want you to be more informal, it's still not great dialogue. Like if you look at the lines that they're actually saying to each other, you could still use 21st century language and do a better job.

[00:42:42] Amanda: So I think that maybe I was like, Oh, it, and it, yeah, it gets repetitive. And especially when it's violent, like talking, talking about Zayden, I'm like, okay, I'm Really? What other words, aside from scorching fucking hot, can you use to describe this man? Because honestly, I'm over it. Also, yes, [00:43:00] we get like, and also I talked about this with ACOTAR Yeah. Why, why do all of the men in this book just smell like bits of nature? Like it's no, like a well oiled Redwood forest. I'm like, what? I don't know why 

[00:43:18] Kelsey: that is common, but that is such a 

[00:43:21] Amanda: trope and I'm like, what does he like? She, cause she kept on talking about how much he smelled like mint. I'm like, does he just like bathe in Listerine or something before?

[00:43:28] Amanda: Like, it was just like, so dumb. And then, and I know this isn't a thing now in fantasy. And I, and I think again, this was another , mark against Rebecca Yarris for this book is that. In my opinion, and I'm curious to hear what you think, because you read more than I do. Yeah. I've only read two at this point.

[00:43:46] Amanda: What this book feels like is we're currently in this, in this space and time where like romanticy is having a huge moment. Yeah. There's like an insane following. People are like losing their minds, like all of this like fandom. Losing their [00:44:00] fucking minds. Yeah. Losing their fucking minds. And to me, what this book felt like.

[00:44:04] Amanda: Israel Bakayaros was like, Hmm, look at this moment where folks are putting out all of these books, making insane amount of money, getting crazy followings. Let me essentially take the prototype, like take this formula that has been put out there and is doing well and basically take it, make a couple of tweaks to it, throw in some dragons and ride this romanticy wave right all the way to the bank and that's what it felt like because even though again This is only my second book.

[00:44:29] Amanda: It's like oh we have another resound, right? We have Zayden and he's dark and store to me and mysterious. Yes jaded and brooding like you literally copy paste like literally Copied and pasted. And we have like, although like, I wouldn't say that Dane is a complete match for Tamlin. I think he's actually better than Tamlin, but you just like, the tropes are so weird and unimaginative and redundant.

[00:44:55] Amanda: It's like you were doing really. If you take the dragons out of this book, [00:45:00] there's nothing new happening there. And I've heard from other people that there are other books like dragon fantasies that do this so much better too. Oh, I'm sure. They're like, if dragon fantasy is something you're into, like fourth wing is not it.

[00:45:11] Amanda: And so it just it felt like so plug and play. 

[00:45:14] Kelsey: I want to know those books. , 

[00:45:16] Amanda: one of them I think is mentioned in one of the reviews I'm going to read later, I think. 

[00:45:20] Kelsey: Okay, cool. 

[00:45:20] Amanda: , yeah. 

[00:45:21] Kelsey: But yeah, no, 

[00:45:22] Amanda: I 

[00:45:24] Kelsey: have zero issue with like, I don't know. It's just, you're right. Like it, there always is the dark, handsome, tall man that she ends up with and they always are 19 or 20 and like, , Yeah.

[00:45:42] Kelsey: I don't know. , I think, cause I'm trying to think of like other books to, , where this plays out. There's tons, but, yeah. Rhysand and like Xaden Oh, in spark of the Everflame That's also a thing. It's like, [00:46:00] so I loved that one too, but maybe it's because I like those things that, , yeah, I mean, that makes sense.

[00:46:05] Kelsey: You know, you're going to like, keep engaging with it. Yeah. , but I'm just trying to think of like, Oh God, what makes this different than the other ones? And I think you're right. Like the world is definitely like its own, but the dragons, I especially loved that aspect of the book and, Yeah, and there's always or often times, , yeah, like there's the Tamlin esque character.

[00:46:31] Kelsey: Uh Huh. The good guy. Yeah, in Spark of the Everflame, there's this guy named Henry, and then in this book, it's Dane. Mm hmm. And it's like, fuck Dane, 

[00:46:43] Amanda: It's just like the classic love triangle. You know, you have like the blonde haired golden boy, who's just like goody two shoes, the dark brooding guy and the girl that just caught in between and can't make up her mind.

[00:46:56] Kelsey: And, , again, like she, I don't know. I don't feel like she was. [00:47:00] It's very like, , couldn't make up her mind. I don't think she was like, no, I actually wrote 

[00:47:07] Amanda: a note somewhere that one of the things I did like about her is that I, I was very happy that she established boundaries with Zayden after they'd had sex and he was like, I don't know, like if that's This can be, and she's like, well, this is what I want.

[00:47:19] Amanda: And if you're not ready to commit, then like, forget it. And I was like, okay, well, that's nice. I appreciated that moment of like empowerment for her and like autonomy for her. , but I, I just think overall, again, for me personally, if you had taken all of the romance and smut out of this book, it would have been like 10 times better.

[00:47:33] Amanda: Like I would have enjoyed it so much more. And I know I've mentioned this trilogy several times on this podcast, but like Red Rising, the Red Rising trilogy, part of the first book there. It's also throughout kind of this school, essentially this training center. And it's very violent. And they're like

[00:47:51] Amanda: trying to, to figure out who's going to come out on top. And it was so well done and it was so good. And the stakes were so high and I enjoyed it so much. [00:48:00] And all of the things I liked about that and the elements that were then in this book, , like I didn't need this like smoldering, simmering sexual tension to keep me reading, you know?

[00:48:09] Amanda: And I know people like romantic, like that's part of it's like the romance part, but I'm like, You could have easily removed that and it would not have made this book worse at all. Whereas if you took out the dragons, the book would have been awful. In my opinion, it's so funny because like, I don't know that I'll ever, which is fine.

[00:48:26] Amanda: I don't know that I'll ever be a fan of, Romance, but I, I was reading one of the sex scenes and literally I copied down this, , quote. Oh goodness. I whimper with pure want at the feel of how hard he is for me. And I'm just like, kill me fucking now. I do not care. Like there is nothing about this that makes me want to keep reading.

[00:48:48] Amanda: And I understand that some people want to read their porn versus watching it, but it's, that's just not for me. Like I, that's not. It doesn't do anything for me. And just reading those scenes, I'm like, this is so great. And I [00:49:00] felt like a fifth grade boy was like, just give me the dragons.

[00:49:02] Amanda: I don't want the sex scene, I just want more fighting.

[00:49:08] Kelsey: , so funny. Yeah. I'm, I'm. I'm glad that this, I was like, gosh, we have to talk about the smut. We have to talk about it. And I was like, what do, what do I want to say? What do you want to say? 

[00:49:19] Amanda: Tell me. 

[00:49:19] Kelsey: , I was like, God, how in depth do I want to go in on this? But I think that, you know, Smut in your romantasy books is definitely more of a newer thing, right?

[00:49:32] Kelsey: And I think it has been because for a lot of the majority of history, right? Like men are allowed to look at porn, right? And women have often been, , , gosh, what are the words I'm even looking for. It's just that. It's not, yeah, yeah. Shamed around sex around porn or around any desires, sexual desires that we have.

[00:49:56] Kelsey: , but then at the same time, like we're supposed to be ready for [00:50:00] sex at all times. Right. So I think that like. This new wave of, romantasy right? Like it has both of those elements where it's like, it's a good story. It's a cool story. And it also has this element of, , romance where I think women have been You know, perhaps suppressing for a long time.

[00:50:23] Kelsey: Right. And so I think that that's really why, , it's so popular is because it's not this trashy, like thing you're looking at, right. Where oftentimes it's like different for men and women. , and I don't want to generalize these things, but I'm just wanting to say that, , I think women have a different, , or at least the fans of romanticy just have a different like desire for what kind of porn they're experiencing, right?

[00:50:51] Kelsey: And so it's not this like, overly sexualized, woman. that you're like watching, like, I'm trying to get my words out. But [00:51:00] it's just that watching porn has like never been super interesting to me.

[00:51:04] Kelsey: Because it's oftentimes really like icky and the women are constantly these weak women who like, , potentially it's like not a safe environment for them to even engage in this. , because we don't know if they're being trafficked or if they're being forced into this, , things like that.

[00:51:20] Kelsey: , but I think with this, oftentimes it's like this stronger female character. telling a man like exactly what she wants. And I think that it can be also healing in a way for, , for various people. And, , so yeah, I think it's just one also is entertainment down to it as well. , so those are kind of my thoughts on it.

[00:51:46] Amanda: Yeah, no, I, and I think I can definitely, , I agree with a good chunk of what you're saying. And even if you look at kind of more traditional porn, it's like from the male gaze. Right. And oftentimes like you don't even see the guy in it. It's just literally from the male's perspective.[00:52:00] 

[00:52:00] Amanda: Right. Yeah. And so I think, you know, looking at it like, Oh, this is a way. women kind of taking back control of their sexuality and how they express their sexual desires through these texts. Like I can get on board with that. I think one of the things that I am hesitant about though, and I think this came up for me in ACOTAR, not in this book so much, but in ACOTAR, it's like, well, if this is women being like, Hey, we're taking control of our own narrative now.

[00:52:28] Amanda: And like, we're producing the kind of, Porn that makes us feel good and that taps into what we want. And then you have a character like Tamlin. It's really, to me, like really problematic because he's very much enforcing really bad, patriarchal, , demeaning, aggressive ways of like interacting with a woman, especially like, yeah, I won't get into all of it.

[00:52:49] Amanda: Cause we talked about in an earlier episode, so that to me is like, are we just then taking what we've been told and , Regurgitating that versus like, Hey, which I feel like, again, Rebecca Yara did a better job in [00:53:00] this book where I do think Violet had more say. And was able to be, like I said, after their first time that they had sex and she's like, okay, I love you and this is what I want.

[00:53:10] Amanda: And if you are not ready for this, and if this is not what you want, I'm not just going to kind of go along for the ride. Like you can either get on board with it or I'm out. And so that was like, okay, that felt much better. So yeah, I think I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I think. It only gets a bit dicey if these, sex scenes and smut are just reinforcing the patriarchal, like tropes, narratives, conventions that have been like forced upon us.

[00:53:32] Amanda: And we're just reenacting them as women and be like, yeah, this is what we want. Like the, the brooding beastly man. Who's going to come in and take control. And like, I don't want that. Like, I don't want that. 

[00:53:42] Kelsey: I will say again, like, I don't Because this even goes into like dark romance where I'm not a fan of that stuff because it, it can be like triggering for me, , on a personal level.

[00:53:54] Kelsey: But some women, , really enjoy that. Like it's a huge genre, [00:54:00] right. And I. And that kind of goes along with like Tamlin essentially in ACOTAR, right? Like where it's something can be lived out safely, but in a different way. And I don't personally understand that desire for it to be similar to a sexual assault, right?

[00:54:19] Kelsey: Like I don't personally identify with that. , desire, but I just wanted to say that there is that there is that and, , I think that's valid and okay for women to want, cause I don't think just because you're reading something that is problematic, automatically your life is problematic or that even your thinking is problematic because, you know, , I'm in my, , loving, like, marriage relationship, and I'm not actively in my personal life trying to go, cause even Zayden, like, is problematic and super toxic.

[00:54:56] Kelsey: Even though I like them as a pair [00:55:00] and I feel the tension between them. Like it's, it's not the thing that I'm going for in my personal life. Does that make sense? So it is entertainment at some point, like it's not that deep. 

[00:55:13] Amanda: Well, I think, but I think also, It matters your positionality too, because you are a 30 something year old woman, right?

[00:55:20] Amanda: Who has a strong sense of self who has done her own work and know who she is and what she's about. And I think that's very different from having like a 15 year old engaged in attacks. Who's still developing their sense of self, still understanding. what they want and who they are and how to shape their relationships and who, like, let's be honest, like the things that we engage with, whether it's like the books we read, the social media, we consume the news we watch, it does have an impact on you.

[00:55:46] Amanda: And so again, I'm not saying that, you know, I'm not here to police what people are reading, but I think to ignore that fact is a problem to be like, Oh, it doesn't matter. You know? So I, I do think. Everything we consume influences us in some way. And I think being able to create that [00:56:00] distance, right, between what you're absorbing and your own personal life is easier or harder depending on, on a lot of factors.

[00:56:07] Amanda: One of them being age, I think. So that, that does make me a little cautious. I don't know how many young folks are reading dark romance, for example, but, , I do wonder, cause I even think about the things that my Students will say, or say that they think after having watched certain things. I don't know if you remember not to go on a tangent.

[00:56:27] Amanda: , what was that Netflix, , show wasn't called like 13 reasons why or something. And the kind of impact that that had on our students and the conversation that they were having and the things that they were, you know, Believing and the ways in which we had to intervene in our school as teachers, it does matter.

[00:56:44] Amanda: But anyway, that's a, that's a separate conversation. , all that to say overall, I think that they're like, there's nothing wrong with having smut and enjoying your books. I just, for me personally, back to my original point, it's not for me and I'm, I enjoy a book more. When it's not there or the [00:57:00] other thing, and I wrote this down to the thing that gets me going and I think I'm like, Ooh, okay, is when there's like more of courtship, flirting, that sexual tension. Mm-hmm . I love when that's there. Right. And that the way that it's, , it can be like really subtle and it continues to build and build. Mm-hmm . Like that is great for me. I don't then need to like, read multiple pages of the actual act happening.

[00:57:25] Amanda: Like, I don't get anything out of that. Yeah. Yeah. I think being able as a writer, right, anytime you're able to craft mm-hmm . That level of emotional. pull by building that tension, by drawing it out, like the looks and the glances and whatever, like I'm all, I am here for it. I really enjoy that both in books and movies.

[00:57:43] Amanda: But then for me, I don't then need to like, and I know some people do like they need the, okay, I need to actually see it happen. I don't need 

[00:57:49] Kelsey: that. 

[00:57:50] Amanda: I don't know that I would say 

[00:57:51] Kelsey: I need that. I think my favorite is the, the tension between characters and the buildup. And that's what, , one of my, we talked about this a long time ago around, , enemies [00:58:00] to lovers.

[00:58:01] Kelsey: And like you said in the, , summary, yeah, it is an enemies to lovers. , that is like one of my favorites. Yeah. 

[00:58:07] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:58:09] Kelsey: And it's because it's always filled with tension 

[00:58:12] Amanda: and 

[00:58:12] Kelsey: like, whether or not, you know, the other person's perspective, , it, I already knew that Zayden and Violet were going to end up together.

[00:58:19] Kelsey: So, , it just, and it was pretty obvious in the beginning, but, , , so I was already looking for the ways in which Zayden was obviously attracted to Violet. Because, you know, I don't know if you could be super oblivious to that. I'm not sure.

[00:58:36] Kelsey: Maybe some readers are, , in this, in this book. I'm not sure. , yeah. But anyway, reading back, I think it was pretty obvious things. Yeah. 

[00:58:46] Amanda: Yeah, for sure. I think it's pretty obvious. , 

[00:58:48] Kelsey: the gifts and like protecting her and these kinds of things. It's just like from Violet's perspective, right? It's like, why the fuck is he doing this?

[00:58:57] Kelsey: He hates me. Right. Exactly. 

[00:58:59] Amanda: And it [00:59:00] also, that also was a clear connection to like ReSound and Feyre. Because again, Unlike Tamlin, who does like nothing for Feyre. Yes. , Dane doesn't do a whole lot either for, , Violet. He's just like, get out of here. Go to the scribe and try to get you out of here. Whereas Zayden is like, you're here.

[00:59:19] Amanda: You should stay. And here's how you can survive. Like, let me help you do that. Yeah. And like give you like kind of the gifts, the tools, the skill sets that you need in order to make that happen. I was like, Oh, that's such a clear, like parallel between those two stories. And I did like, one thing I will say for Zayden one of the positive things I will say is that I do like the fact Violet, very explicitly says this, but he does believe in her abilities.

[00:59:41] Amanda: Whereas like Dane is like, you're weak and I love you. So leave so you don't die. I was like, I think you got this. Like, I'm just going to let you figure it out. You know, and I did appreciate him giving her the space to do that. And then also here's some things strategies against skills, whatever that will help you survive.

[00:59:58] Amanda: , but again, as I [01:00:00] said, my favorite characters in the book were not the humans. , mine was my favorite character was Tarn. I just imagined him. I didn't listen to the audio book. Obviously I don't know that they do voices, but I just imagined this, like, older British man with like a really dry sense of humor.

[01:00:14] Amanda: And like, that's the voice that I had in my head. And I was like, this is so great. Like hilarious, hilarious. I laughed several times at his lines. Like some of them were super cheesy. I was like, okay. But I, yeah, I was 

[01:00:28] Kelsey: laughing the whole time. It was so good. Yes. And on Darna, I really liked on Darna too. Yeah.

[01:00:35] Kelsey: So sweet. Like the two side by side. 

[01:00:39] Amanda: No, they're like super logical thing though, where everyone was like, Oh my gosh, like so convinced that this feather tail is a full grown dragon when it's so obvious, like she doesn't breathe fire. She doesn't have claws. Like clearly she's a baby dragon. Like, why is it?

[01:00:55] Amanda: I don't know. What could it be? It was like, okay, you guys are idiots. Yeah. [01:01:00] I do like Indorna. She's precious. 

[01:01:03] Kelsey: Yeah. I think, yeah, some of my favorite lines definitely come from Tarn. And gosh, I guess I want to dive into Dane a little bit. 

[01:01:11] Amanda: Okay. We haven't really talked about him much, honestly. Yeah, 

[01:01:13] Kelsey: we haven't.

[01:01:14] Kelsey: Well, he's not that important, but I think that he's going to become important because here's my theory. I have a 

[01:01:20] Amanda: theory. I have a theory too. Go 

[01:01:21] Kelsey: ahead. I think it's the same theory. Maybe. I think it is. But I think that. Because they find out that Dane is the one that likely betrayed them, , before they go off into like the last battle, , that's supposed to be like part of the, the war game.

[01:01:37] Kelsey: Actually think that, Dane's father has told him to snoop on Violet and that he's part of this I don't know, just the trying to uncover like what's going on with the, , the god, what are they called? Oh, so like zaden, the resistance, like the, yeah, the resistance.

[01:01:58] Kelsey: , because I don't know that they would [01:02:00] be so oblivious to what's going on with Zayden in them. That feels really obvious of what's happening. And so I feel like Dane was told to, or that he was, , enlisted to support this effort, even though it's against Violet because, and 

[01:02:18] Amanda: well, originally it's not against Violet until the very end.

[01:02:21] Amanda: Right. Cause she's a no, but yeah.

[01:02:22] Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah. True. True. , but. Yeah, just because Dane is such a stupid rule follower and I think that he would do something like that 

[01:02:33] Amanda: Yeah, 

[01:02:34] Kelsey: what is your theory? 

[01:02:36] Amanda: It's just like my prediction In the next book and moving forward like Dane is obviously gonna Very quickly, I think move up in the ranks and he's going to be kind of enemy number one, right?

[01:02:48] Amanda: Against Zayden and Violet. Rebecca laid it out very clearly. Like you were just saying, he's such a rule follower. He's very much like prone of our like whatever, like the country [01:03:00] needs. I'm here for like, again, golden boy. And so. As soon as he feels like that is being threatened in some way, he's going to be like, yes, I'm here like little Captain America, right?

[01:03:11] Amanda: Let me come in. And so I can see him very much even though he's not one of the generals, I can see him being kind of at the forefront of the conflict that's, you know, going to ensue. 

[01:03:22] Kelsey: And in the end, I don't think he's going to end up believing. What Violet has 

[01:03:28] Amanda: no, the 

[01:03:28] Kelsey: knowledge that she has of what's going on.

[01:03:30] Kelsey: I don't think he's going to believe. 

[01:03:32] Amanda: Well, 

[01:03:32] Amanda: , 

[01:03:32] Amanda: I think he, he might, but I think he's going to deny it. I think he's going to be like, even if that's the case, who cares? We're in a protection of our, like, like screw Romeo. Like, I think he probably will believe it, but I think it won't matter to him.

[01:03:46] Amanda: Cause again, Because like, look at the way that he treats violent and the way that it's like, if I had to decide between breaking the rules and saving your life, I wouldn't break the rules. Right. Like if it's that level of commitment to [01:04:00] like the letter of the law, there's no way.

[01:04:02] Amanda: Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's my prediction. Oh, 

[01:04:06] Kelsey: man. Yeah, Dane, I think it's just gonna be go downhill from here. 

[01:04:12] Amanda: Even 

[01:04:12] Kelsey: more downhill. 

[01:04:13] Amanda: Yeah, he was so whiny and annoying. 

[01:04:15] Kelsey: He was annoying. , now The other thing that I wanted to touch on, which I saw from someone else, because whenever I learned about the fourth wing, right?

[01:04:25] Kelsey: Like I was like, Oh, that's why it's called fourth wing. But somebody said that their theory is it's fourth wing because, , and it could have double meaning. It doesn't have to be one or the other, but double meaning in the fact that Violet actually does have four wings. Because, , because the two dragons, yeah.

[01:04:46] Kelsey: Double meaning, I suppose. I don't think it's necessarily one or the other. Yeah. I had 

[01:04:50] Amanda: such a hard time speaking of that. I had such a hard time keeping track of the different. 

[01:04:56] Kelsey: Oh, a hundred 

[01:04:57] Amanda: percent. Cause it was like. Flame section, fourth wing, [01:05:00] sixth quadrant, tail, like, I'm like, I, I, at that point I stopped, I stopped the track, I'm like, this is a matter, she's in fourth wing, full stop, I don't even care.

[01:05:08] Amanda: I don't 

[01:05:08] Kelsey: even know which section she's in. I just know that she's in Dane's. 

[01:05:11] Amanda: And then they kept on absorbing folks from other sections because people were dying. I was like, at this point, it's not relevant to the story. I didn't think so. It was so I was like, Rebecca, nobody cares. Like stop with all of these labels.

[01:05:23] Amanda: Like they're just confusing it unnecessary. , so 

[01:05:27] Kelsey: funny. 

[01:05:28] Amanda: Yeah. I'm trying to think if there's anything else I'm like looking at my 

[01:05:31] Amanda: Honestly, aside from the dialogue, I didn't think this book was poorly written.

[01:05:35] Amanda: Well, like the dialogue and the way the information was given, I thought was like, not great, but like the actual sentence structure and the writing itself, I didn't have a problem with it very much. Like I zipped through this book mainly because it felt like it was pure entertainment. Like it felt, I think I told you, it felt like I was reading.

[01:05:53] Amanda: A television series, you know, like a fantasy TV series. And I know it's already been optioned by what Amazon to be made [01:06:00] into. , yeah, a TV show. Yeah. , and I can, like, you can see, it's almost like she wrote it for that reason. Like, , so it was very easy to get through, it definitely, it was not difficult.

[01:06:10] Amanda: It was pure escapism, like pure entertainment. I can see why folks enjoyed it. Like I, I was invested enough that, you know, by the end I did legitimately cry when Liam died. , that was so heartbreaking, like legit, like I was like wiping away tears. I'm like, yeah, Amanda. , you're like, You don't care about this character.

[01:06:27] Amanda: I did like Liam, though. Liam 

[01:06:30] Kelsey: was so sweet. And like, why did it have to 

[01:06:33] Amanda: be this sweet guy that these girls need to go for? Forget Dane. Forget Zayn. Liam is like legit it. Why are you wasting your time on these other Yahoos? He's right in front of you. And he's the one. Literally, that has been watching your back since like, you know, Zayden told you to, and then they get killed off and I'm like, yeah, and I 

[01:06:56] Kelsey: think that what I've heard is that Rebecca is not afraid to [01:07:00] kill characters off. And so more characters die in the next book. Not surprising. It's not 

[01:07:06] Amanda: surprising because it's an easy way to get people like chatting about your book and invested in upset and having conversations like it is like, like, look, I didn't, I never watched it, but isn't that like also true for Game of Thrones?

[01:07:16] Amanda: Like they would get you super invested in a character and then they would . Kill them off and people would be like, outraged. But hey, it keeps you watching, it keeps you talking about the show. It gives you buzz that you want. So it, I never watched 

[01:07:26] Kelsey: any of them. 

[01:07:28] Amanda: I watched the first episode.

[01:07:28] Amanda: Isn't the book too 

[01:07:29] Kelsey: episode? 

[01:07:30] Amanda: Well, yeah, it's a whole series, but yeah. Okay. I watched the first episode, I'm like, Nope, not for me. And I know it's super gory, isn't there like a lot of violence and like sexual violence too? I just can't handle it. Yeah, I 

[01:07:41] Kelsey: know. So that's not for me either. Maybe 

[01:07:44] Amanda: I could watch the censored version where they like take out all the gore.

[01:07:47] Kelsey: It would be like five minutes long. Yep, that's all I need. , the other thing, the other like theories I wanted to get into too, because you know, it's a fantasy book and , there's, there's going to be [01:08:00] things uncovered. As the world continues to build, right? And the fact that we know that Venon are real and what was it?

[01:08:08] Kelsey: The wyverns, the Griff, but what were the Griffins? Griffins. 

[01:08:12] Amanda: Yeah. What are those? They're like good guys. Yeah. Oh yeah. I think they're, I think they're working with the dragons to help defeat the wyvern. Yeah. 

[01:08:20] Kelsey: Okay. And then it was found out that the Venon controlled the wyverns. Is that right? At the end.

[01:08:27] Kelsey: Yeah. And then, , We don't understand much about Venons because we just got introduced to them and Feyre, Feyre. Oh my God. Violet. We're talking so much about Agatar. , Violet. Had a book of fables about yes, yes I'm curious if we will likely get more information about Venon and wyverns But she was poisoned right in that last little bit of the book and I'm so curious Like what the poison was and how [01:09:00] was Brennan able to mend her or is there going to be long?

[01:09:03] Kelsey: I think there's aftereffects. I think so. That was 

[01:09:05] Amanda: my theory cuz like it are they gonna be positive or negative? I don't know. I, I don't know, but I think it reminded me a little bit of like, well, Feyre at the end of Agatar, where like, she, she dies. I mean, she's not poisoned. She comes back as a high fey, but like, she's changed in some fundamental way.

[01:09:20] Amanda: Oh, yeah, yeah. And yeah, and I think that. That's why when that happened, I was like, Oh yeah, they got that poison out of her, but there's going to be something there that lingers that has changed her in some way. That's my theory. I don't know. Totally. Yeah. True. That is my question 

[01:09:37] Kelsey: mark. Around that too. 

[01:09:39] Amanda: Yeah.

[01:09:40] Amanda: I want to know. Yeah. I don't want to know more about the venom because it sounds like from what we know, there were like the three brothers, right? One got their magic via the dragons. One got their magic, like, was it through the Griffins? And then the other one was like, well, I don't have any magic.

[01:09:56] Amanda: I'm just going to like channel it straight from the earth. And then it [01:10:00] corrupted them. , and so, you know, me, I love fairy tales. I love fables. And I was like, Ooh, this is intriguing. I want to know more about like what this legend is and how that happened. And Yeah, cause also, here's the other thing, these men, this is not a new thing, right?

[01:10:18] Amanda: They've been around For a long time. And how are they kind of just now? It seems like just now they're wreaking all of this havoc. I'm like, what have they been doing for all of these, like hundreds of years? 

[01:10:30] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[01:10:30] Amanda: Obviously they leeched all of the magic out of the barons, which is why they're called the barons.

[01:10:34] Amanda: Cause they went through and destroyed it all. But like, Based on how quickly during that final battle when you could see the venom pulling the magic from the earth and things were dying the grass was shriveling Oh, right. Yeah, we're dying was sucking their life force out based on how quickly they did that.

[01:10:49] Amanda: Clearly it does not take them a long time to suck the magic out of some place like the barrens is not that large, right? What were they doing for all of these hundreds of years? , I was very confused about [01:11:00] that. I'm hoping that gets answered in the next book. But that seemed again, it was like, Ooh, this doesn't make sense right now.

[01:11:07] Amanda: Like, I don't know what the logic is and why they're, why are they attacking now? Like, yeah. Yeah. So that was a huge question 

[01:11:14] Kelsey: mark. So curious. Cause, , I also think that Violet's mom knows exactly what's happening. Oh, she does. 

[01:11:23] Amanda: Yeah. 

[01:11:24] Kelsey: And I, I was curious about the reason for, and maybe it's just because she is a rule follower, similar to Dane, but she's like, I can't speak to you for three years or I'm not going to acknowledge you for three years.

[01:11:36] Kelsey: Right. And is that her just being,, a rule follower or is there intention behind that in some way? So just kind of see, like, where's, where's Violet going to end up? Like, I don't know. I was curious about that. If there was more, if there was anything to read into that. 

[01:11:52] Amanda: Oh yeah. I just feel like she's like a really distant mom and it's like, go to your dragon thing.

[01:11:57] Amanda: And if you survive, we'll see you in three years if not, sucks for [01:12:00] you. 

[01:12:00] Kelsey: Yeah. I don't know. I definitely think she knows everything that's going on. Is on the front lines, though, 

[01:12:07] Amanda: with 

[01:12:08] Kelsey: the Griffins, right? The Griffins were the ones that were raiding the, outposts or whatever?

[01:12:14] Kelsey: Yeah. And did we get what, what they were doing? So I think they were, so 

[01:12:20] Amanda: the Griffins, so this is what I was, they were getting weapons to help fight the Venon. Mm hmm. And they made note that one of the reasons why like Navar was safe is because they had access to some sort of material that helps them power the wards and they obviously weren't sharing it and so they, isn't it the alloy, the metal and the dagger?

[01:12:43] Amanda: I don't know. I think that's what it was giving 

[01:12:44] Kelsey: the daggers to them. Right. 

[01:12:46] Amanda: Right. But there's that particular type of metal in those daggers that fight that can kill it. Cause you have to stab the Venon with that. And I believe that Navar has that resource. And so when the [01:13:00] Griffins are raiding Navarre, , that's what they're looking for.

[01:13:02] Kelsey: Yeah. So I just, that's why they're 

[01:13:04] Amanda: attacking. 

[01:13:05] Kelsey: Yeah. I just remember part of the battle brief is like, why are they attacking? Like, it's not like there's minerals there. 

[01:13:12] Amanda: But remember, like, I don't think the battle briefs were not always 

[01:13:16] Kelsey: Totally. 

[01:13:17] Amanda: Totally correct. And like stuff was redacted and obviously they don't want people to know the truth.

[01:13:21] Amanda: So I think that's why, but no, it said later that they were like looking for the particular material because that's the only thing that they can use to defeat the Venom. 

[01:13:30] Kelsey: Yeah. , so yeah, I'm curious if Mira has any insight. To anything at the moment. It seems like she doesn't and that she's just kind of blindly, you know, yeah soldier 

[01:13:41] Amanda: Yeah 

[01:13:41] Kelsey: on the front lines But I think that she would come around if she knew what was going on, especially because their brother is Alive.

[01:13:51] Amanda: But the 

[01:13:51] Kelsey: question is, do you think that Vi not Violet. What's her mom's name? Lilith. Oh, Lilith. Do you think that [01:14:00] she knows that Brennan is alive? Oh

[01:14:01] Amanda: I want to say no. Just since she's like, so kind of cold hearted. I feel like she had a child who was working for the resistance that she would have him killed.

[01:14:15] Amanda: He was like actively undermining her. Like, I don't think she would think twice about sending someone to kill him or killing him herself. Especially if she knew where he was, like that tracks with who she is. So 

[01:14:25] Kelsey: curious. 

[01:14:26] Amanda: Yeah. But 

[01:14:27] Kelsey: I think some of those questions will be answered, not necessarily in the next book, but along the way for sure.

[01:14:37] Kelsey: I guess I'm curious, like how this can go on for five books, like the, the conflict, right? Cause it seems like. Okay, they're going to find out like the conflict, like more in depth next year, but I don't know. I'm curious,

[01:14:53] Kelsey: but in ACOTAR the way that it's space is like the next novel is like romance. And then the next novel is the [01:15:00] war. And we've, we've talked about that. So anyway, I'm curious. , there was one other thing that I wanted to say, Oh, I was curious. I'm curious if Violet is going to go back to.

[01:15:10] Kelsey: Best guy.

[01:15:11] Amanda: , yeah, I thought about that too. I'm like, does she have to go back and finish her training? I did go and read like the book jacket description for iron flame just to get a sense of like what's next. And like, based on what I read. It sounds like she's back at the college.

[01:15:25] Amanda: Yeah, that's what I thought. So I think she does go back to finish. 

[01:15:28] Kelsey: I was like, fuck then how do they come back from that raid? And then do they not tell anybody? I'm so curious. I don't know. They're going to 

[01:15:36] Amanda: have to like spin a little tail and be like, this is what happened. And guess who's going to be 

[01:15:42] Kelsey: starting Iron Flame today.

[01:15:45] Amanda: Oh, I have, I have a zero idea. You? Oh, no. I mean, I will, I will read it cause I know you're going to make me read it and record something else for it. But, , no, I have, I have other things to get to. I'm going to read, I'm cause we're heading to Christmas break. So I'm going to read [01:16:00] Akimov. over break since it's longer and get through that.

[01:16:03] Amanda: Definitely text me throughout that one, you know, I will, you know, I will. , Oh, right. This is going to be a long episode. I can already tell. Yep. , so final recommendations. We already know what Cal Kelsey thinks. , 

[01:16:17] Kelsey: made it up. 

[01:16:19] Amanda: I, yeah, it's weird, right? Cause again, these are books. That I don't normally read, like this is outside of my preferred genre.

[01:16:27] Amanda: So I'm assuming because this has like a million five star review, literally on over a million on Goodreads 

[01:16:34] Kelsey: and 

[01:16:34] Amanda: that people, you know, have lost their minds over this book that I guess if you like romanticy, it's a good book and you'll like it. , If you're someone like me who is more interested in like the action and adventure and espionage and the dragons, it sounds like from what I've read in the reviews, there are other fantasy books that have those elements that do it better.

[01:16:57] Amanda: And don't necessarily have as much of like the smut in it. [01:17:00] So if you're more like me in that sense, you probably would want to read one of those series instead. , but with all of that said, it was a very easy read. It wasn't one of those fantasy books where you're like, I'm so lost. And like, there's like too much information and there's too many characters.

[01:17:16] Amanda: And I, , I found it pretty accessible. The maps were helpful. There weren't too many of them. And, , so yeah it's definitely an escape read, , you saw something you're going to think about very deeply. Cause there's not a lot to think about. , Kelsey 

[01:17:31] Kelsey: theories. 

[01:17:33] Amanda: Yeah, that would be my final recommendation.

[01:17:36] Kelsey: Finally though, though. 

[01:17:37] Amanda: Oh, yes. It's a big 

[01:17:38] Kelsey: debate. Cause I don't think in iron flame Violet has developed her second signet yet from Andarna. So that is a wonder for the next, for Onyx Storm. We find out what her second signet is. 

[01:17:54] Amanda: I didn't even think about that . Cause at the end of the book, like ultimately Andarna [01:18:00] loses her, no, she doesn't lose her power, but she doesn't, she grows up a little, she grows up a little and then, yeah.

[01:18:05] Amanda: And I think she's 

[01:18:06] Kelsey: bigger. 

[01:18:07] Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:18:09] Kelsey: Interesting. 

[01:18:11] Amanda: Okay. 

[01:18:12] Kelsey: So she'll have two signets. 

[01:18:14] Amanda: We shall see once we get there. So we're going to do our literally the best, literally the worst, literally the worst. You know. What this is all about. So we're going to do, , I'm going to read one star reviews from Goodreads.

[01:18:27] Amanda: Kelsey is going to read five star. I think we have three each. Yeah. Yes. All right. Why don't you kick things off for us? 

[01:18:35] Kelsey: All right, so this one is from Allie Goodwin and says, Oh my God, this book, this book, this book.

[01:18:44] Kelsey: As soon as I finished the book, I immediately started reading all of my favorite scenes chapters, which is how I know I'm obsessed. First of all, the setting and concept is so cool. The book takes place at a war college for dragon riders. It gives slight Hogwarts, Harry Potter vibes, but a [01:19:00] hundred times more brutal and deadly.

[01:19:02] Kelsey: I also love the politics and backstory of the outside world as well. And then we have the romance. Rebecca Yaros, I bow down to you for writing Zayden Ryerson, the man, sweaty, hot emojis. The way you never know if he wants to kiss Violet or kill her. The way he's so mysterious and guarded, but also has these surprising and small moments of kindness and loyalty.

[01:19:29] Kelsey: Instantly one of my top book boyfriends. I actually will agree with Allie. Yes, Zayden has risen up in my level of rankings for book boyfriends. Wait, who's your top book boyfriend? Maybe Kai from Powerless? , And then another 

[01:19:49] Amanda: Chi, like from trail of lightning, re 

[01:19:51] Kelsey: sand would be actually quite lower. I'm just not re sand has lost his allure, in my opinion.[01:20:00] 

[01:20:00] Amanda: Oh, okay. 

[01:20:01] Kelsey: Yeah. With the books that I've read so far, , yeah. So Zayden's quite up there now. 

[01:20:07] Amanda: Okay. Okay. So, , my first one star review comes from Heather. Heather. Heather. Let's hear it after months of nonstop posts and comments about this book. Like it's literally the Holy grail of fantasy books. I've been forced to think about this book more than I initially did.

[01:20:24] Amanda: And after picking it apart in my mind, I find that there is nothing like nothing original written within these pages. Furthermore, there is so much that just doesn't make sense or add up. Couple things that come to mind. Why, if you are so shorthanded on dragon riders, are you just randomly killing them off even before they get to the dragon school?

[01:20:45] Amanda: Why, if you are at war, do you have the kids of these rebels, your enemies in a position of command so that they know all of your war strategies? Nothing questionable there. Violence. Is not a cute pet name. This book is a mashup of not just themes from Harry [01:21:00] Potter, Divergent, The Hunger Games, Dragon Riders of Pern, Akatar, Shadow and Bone, but literally the characters are totally ripped off.

[01:21:08] Amanda: I understand that this book was written to draw in readers that don't typically read fantasy, So I guess take it like a grain of salt when I say the world building is non existent. You know what? I take that back. World building should be a key point in any novel written regardless of genre. Personally, I'm not thrilled reading a chewed up regurgitated blend of some of my favorite fantasy books.

[01:21:28] Amanda: I dig originality. Again, this is just my own personal preference. Please do not try to come for me with the hateful comments. I've already been told that basically there must be something wrong with me because I didn't enjoy this. I've also been mildly threatened. Okay. Wow. Toxic fandom or what? 

[01:21:44] Amanda: I'll read book two just to see if Rebecca Yaros can get away from stitching together a story is already told. Yeah, I read again anyway is what she said. She'll read. She'll read book two just to see if she can like if it's basically better and the second book, which I don't know that [01:22:00] it's going to be heard that it's worse.

[01:22:03] Amanda: But, , I appreciate the comment she made at the end. And this is something we talked about last night where I do feel like some of these fandoms, regardless of whether they're what they're around, whether it's around an artist, whether it's around an author or a book series, like it is really toxic. And there's no space for, for us to do things like we do, where we kind of talk about the books from different sides without people losing their shit.

[01:22:24] Amanda: And I think that's really unhealthy just in general, to not be able to have a dialogue about something from opposing sides without being like, yeah, got you down. How could you possibly think that I can't even conceive of a world in which someone might not 

[01:22:36] Kelsey: like this? Yeah. It's interesting how people get so Worked up.

[01:22:42] Kelsey: Yeah, I just and wrapped up in their own opinion and Thinking that their opinion is the only opinion. I don't understand that in our society like how We can, we do that. Like it's [01:23:00] so, it is quite toxic and I'm curious if it's like throughout the world or is it mostly in the United States? I'm curious about that, but we see it in a lot of, yeah, fantasy books or just like, , on take talk with, like you said, various artists, like it is interesting because it's not like these things or people are perfect.

[01:23:21] Kelsey: It's okay that they're not or one. And not everybody is going to like the same thing. That's why we're all different. Yes, and it's okay. 

[01:23:30] Amanda: To her comment. 

[01:23:33] Kelsey: Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, go ahead. 

[01:23:35] Amanda: I was just like, people feel like, like they are personally invested in these things. And then they're like, I feel like I'm being personally attacked.

[01:23:41] Amanda: I'm like, it's not about you. Like no. Calm yourselves. It's not. Yeah. But anyhow. 

[01:23:46] Kelsey: While Amanda and I argue on this podcast, we like often, often disagree. Like there's no, well, Amanda came for my character. Like it's not. It's not that deep. It's not that deep y'all. It's a [01:24:00] book. It's a book. , coming back to the idea of like unique books and unique worlds.

[01:24:05] Kelsey: I do appreciate that, but I also don't mind rereading things that I love. Yeah. So yeah. Cause unique worlds are fun too. Yes, I concur. My next, five star from Brady Lockerbie. I don't think this five star rating will come as a surprise to anyone, but wow, this book has everything.

[01:24:25] Kelsey: Everything, badass characters, dragons, you'll fall in love with and so much sexual tension, a great book to begin with. If you're new to fantasy and aren't really sure where to start agree, I found it easy to follow along. And there wasn't an insane amount of world building that would leave you bored, loved this and can't wait for iron flame.

[01:24:48] Kelsey: Exclamation. 

[01:24:49] Amanda: Yeah. I mean, I do agree with that sentiment, which I think I said earlier, it is a very easy book to dive into and follow along. Cause some, some fantasy can be quite complex and it's like, how do I keep track of like this world [01:25:00] and how it operates and all these characters. And I think it was quite accessible.

[01:25:04] Amanda: So I will definitely give, , Rebecca kudos for that. Okay. , this one is from. Luca, I am a bookseller and read a variety of genres, including children's and YA. My issues are not with these genres. My issues are with books that read as clumsy, horny, and not in a fun camp way and unpolished, which in my personal opinion, this book is.

[01:25:27] Amanda: It's pretty stock standard, commercial, horny, hetero fiction. That's fine. Can't please everyone. I'll be totally honest. If you don't care that much about quality of writing and want an easy hetero romance fantasy novel, nothing wrong with that. You may enjoy this. It's not my thing though, and I can't recommend it.

[01:25:43] Amanda: If you want a decent whole meal fantasy novel to sink your teeth into. My disappointment is partly caused by the misleading blurb and advanced reader copy marketing. The blurb implies a high stakes military fantasy set at a war college for Dragon Riders. This put me in [01:26:00] mind of Temeraire, the Poppy War, even elements of the Hunger Games.

[01:26:03] Amanda: Romance is mentioned, traitors will become allies or lovers, but it's certainly not implied to be wholly a romance novel. All the characters, even supposed high ranking military figures speak like millennials from the year 2023. Why was the word vibe used so many times? As in, his vibe is weird. But in other ways, the setting recalls medieval Europe.

[01:26:25] Amanda: Who edited this? I would not have picked this up if the marketing more accurately reflected the content. It's 100 percent a romance novel in the vein of Sarah J. Maas, Cassandra Clare, the Divergent series. Any genuine stakes are basically subplot to the central romance. The oh so important tension could be resolved by just Talking to one another?

[01:26:46] Amanda: Most other world building elements are underdeveloped and confusing, full of plot holes, and everyone's dialogue is set up to give the protagonist an dark love interest, perfect, marvelous quips and one liners. I get that this is a popular [01:27:00] thing, but to me it lacks sophistication and polish of contemporary fantasy.

[01:27:04] Amanda: All in all, this to me read like a semi edited fanfic, if that's your thing, go buck wild. Otherwise, I can't really recommend it. The blurb is pretty misleading. In my opinion, expect a YA romance novel. It's definitely not YA. I don't, I definitely, I think the smut makes it not YA. If you took the smut out, it's definitely YA for sure.

[01:27:24] Amanda: Like the characters are a bunch of teenagers running around being teenagers. , but I will, one of the things they do. Dib like they act like teenagers. , and they're basically they're young adults in college. , so I think the one thing I did like about this, I agreed with is that. If I knew nothing about this book and from like other people and I just read the blurb, I would have been really excited because I'm like, Oh, this does feel like red rising and something like that.

[01:27:48] Amanda: Huh. So it, I agree that I think it is misleading if you read the, , Yeah, the blurb, you're gonna expect something different than what you get. Okay, well done. 

[01:27:57] Kelsey: Well, I found it on TikTok and I knew [01:28:00] exactly what it was going to be like. Well, 

[01:28:01] Amanda: that also makes sense if that's where you found it, I think.

[01:28:04] Amanda: Right, right. 

[01:28:07] Kelsey: Which is why I was interested in it. If I had read the blurb, I may not have been as interested. Oh, it's just military stuff, man. 

[01:28:14] Amanda: Yeah, see, we're so different because I'm like, oh yeah, that sounds so cool. 

[01:28:19] Kelsey: Funny, funny. , okay. Oh 

[01:28:23] Amanda: my God. You haven't even started and you're already like losing it.

[01:28:25] Amanda: I forgot that it was 

[01:28:27] Kelsey: this one. Okay. Five stars from Bryce. My socks doesn't need a lot of words, but another book whose world I would not survive in. Even the sex is borderline dangerous. I got a paper cut reading this book and almost cried.

[01:28:44] Amanda: Wait, is that it? That's it. That's it. It's like a, a thing. 

[01:28:50] Kelsey: Go ahead. Go ahead. It's like a thing for, , people to have a desire, like, oh my God, I wanna go live in that world. Right? Like, people talk about that Oh, I see. With Avatar a lot. Yeah. Like, which core [01:29:00] is your core and mm-hmm

[01:29:01] Kelsey: That kind of thing. And so they're like, yeah, we all say that, but we all know that we would not fucking survive a minute in this world. 

[01:29:09] Amanda: Yeah, especially this one. Especially this one. Oh my gosh. the parapet my story. , especially with my fear of heights and my balance. , But his comment about the sex being dangerous.

[01:29:19] Amanda: The fact that her lightning power is going off while they're having sex and like setting forest fires. It was so stupid. It was so dumb. Anyhow, wait, wait, 

[01:29:29] Kelsey: wait, wait, wait. Okay. So when I finished this book, I had to jump into like memes and stuff for fourth wing on TikTok.

[01:29:39] Kelsey: Of course. Oh my God. Okay. There was some art fan art where Dane was outside, like eating something or just hanging out. And then he sees lightning and then he's just like, Goes like, 

[01:29:52] Amanda: Oh, I think I might've seen that exact one. Like anytime there's a [01:30:00] lighting storm, it's just like freaking out. And that was 

[01:30:03] Kelsey: the thing is I didn't realize that when they first kissed Zayden and Violet, that it alluded to her, her lightning.

[01:30:12] Kelsey: So anyway, Rebecca Yarrow's also suggested that her second signet is really. littered throughout the second book. And it's kind of in our faces. So I'm going to be on the lookout for the first 

[01:30:25] Amanda: book. 

[01:30:26] Kelsey: The second, the second. Oh 

[01:30:28] Amanda: yeah. So she, so she doesn't tell us what is in the second book. She just hints at it.

[01:30:31] Amanda: , yeah. And so I think 

[01:30:33] Kelsey: in the third 

[01:30:34] Amanda: book, we find out her second segment. Yeah. This is going to take a while for Indarna to grow up. So that makes sense. Okay. My last one is the shortest one. So this is from Jay. All right. There's a valuable lesson to be learned here. And it's that when you see the entire Goodreads community read and five star the same book, you run as fast as you can in the other direction.

[01:30:56] Amanda: I especially enjoyed the mediocre writing, boring love story, [01:31:00] and the this might as well happen plot where an allegedly frail and weak character is at the same time overpowered as fuck and gets everything handed to her on a silver platter. Zero stars. 

[01:31:10] Kelsey: Zero star. Oh, this book really does have a, , it's a 4.

[01:31:16] Kelsey: 5 star rating, which is really high for good reads. That's a really high. Yeah. It's funny though, 

[01:31:22] Amanda: because if you look at the breakdown of ratings, the one star reviews is like less than 1%. Like 70 percent is five star and like 20 percent is four star. , so yeah, most folks really Or like head over for this book.

[01:31:36] Amanda: Yeah. 

[01:31:37] Kelsey: And me being one of them. 

[01:31:38] Amanda: Yes. And me being not one of them. 

[01:31:42] Kelsey: Where do you think you would actually rate it? I give it two stars. Two stars is a book that I did not like. 

[01:31:49] Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. I get me to quit it. But you said soft 

[01:31:54] Kelsey: quit it. Yeah. But then, 

[01:31:55] Amanda: so yeah. So if I, like, I wouldn't. You said you also still like 

[01:31:57] Kelsey: the world and stuff, so I [01:32:00] guess so.

[01:32:00] Amanda: Yeah, she was, she was, she was good. I guess so. I was on the fence between two and three and I'm just like, the more I thought about it and sat with it, I'm like, I can't, I can't do it. Cause I think for me, I did this when I read ACOTAR and I talked about it.

[01:32:13] Amanda: When I read books like this, part of my brain just turns off part of it because it is an Book. So you're not thinking as hard, but to be like, if I think about this too hard, I'm just going to be annoyed. And so I'm just going to let it go. I'm just going to let it go. And just like, let this wash over me.

[01:32:28] Amanda: And then I go back and like, really think about it more critically. I'm like, Oh yeah, that was really not great. But I certainly don't feel the way that I felt about divine rivals. So that's something or toilet. 

[01:32:39] Kelsey: And you know, that's why we started with those two weaker ones, got 

[01:32:42] Amanda: the worst ones out of the way first.

[01:32:45] Amanda: We'll see. We'll see how these second books for both ACOTAR and Fourth Wing go for me. We shall see. Yeah. But anyhow. All right. So I think we should wrap it up. 

[01:32:56] Kelsey: Thank you everyone for getting this far and for listening to our episode about [01:33:00] Fourth Wing. I am so stoked about Onyx Storm, , but I am about to get into Iron Flame right now.

[01:33:06] Kelsey: And , You can find my updates on our social medias on take talk at lit vibes. Only podcast and on Instagram at lit vibes, underscore podcast, where we update you on our reads, our reactions. , you know, our stickers are no longer available because you missed out on those ones. Unfortunately, but continue to rate and review us, please, because that is what helps a podcast.

[01:33:34] Kelsey: If you want to hear more of us, please help rate and review our podcast on any major podcast platform. It helps us be seen by people who haven't found us yet. , the last social as well, if you're into watching us while you're doing laundry or something or the dishes or I don't know what else you'd be doing, but we are also on YouTube, , so you can see our reactions and faces [01:34:00] and, , yeah, all the things along with 

[01:34:02] Amanda: things.

[01:34:03] Kelsey: It's listening to us. So we're, our episodes are also on YouTube at live vibes only podcast. 

[01:34:09] Amanda: Yes. And just a quick correction. It's a, you forgot to say it live vibes only underscore podcast for Instagram. So it's not, yeah, you said that live vibes underscore podcast, but either way you would get there.

[01:34:21] Amanda: You'd find it. Just wanted to pop that quick correction there just so folks aren't confused, but yes, come chat with us. , we do share more of our thoughts about both books that we've read for this. , podcast and things that we're just like reading in general. So come say, Hey, come share your thoughts and opinions from you guys.

[01:34:37] Amanda: Thank you so much. And we'll see you next Monday. Bye. Bye. 

Bye.