Ep. 15: Lit It or Quit It: Yellowface

Join Kelsey and Amanda as they dive into a detailed discussion of 'Yellowface' by R.F. Kuang. They explore various themes such as race, privilege, and ethics in the publishing industry, while sharing their opinions on the book and characters. Tune in for an insightful conversation about identity and the complexities that come with storytelling.

00:00 Introduction and Social Media Plugs

01:31 Chit Chat w/ Amanda & Kelsey

02:51 Casting Speculations for Verity Movie

12:32 Book Discussion

43:03 Final Thoughts and Recommendations

46:41 Literally the Best and Literally the Worst 

57:46 Social Media and Contact Information

Follow us on TikTok & Youtube @litvibesonlypodcast and on Instagram @litvibesonly_podcast. We'd love to hear from you!

See you on Mondays!

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Social Media Plugs
• 1:31 Chit Chat w/ Amanda & Kelsey
• 2:51 Casting Speculations for Verity Movie
• 12:32 Book Discussion
• 43:03 Final Thoughts and Recommendations
• 46:41 Literally the Best and Literally the Worst
• 57:46 Social Media and Contact Information

Transcript

Ep. 15: Lit It or Quit It: Yelllowface
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[00:00:00] Amanda: A quick note before we begin. While Kelsey and Amanda enjoy debating for your entertainment, we want our listeners to know that Lit Vibes Only is an inclusive community that honors all tastes and respects all readers. Enjoy this episode! 

[00:00:20] Kelsey: Welcome to lit vibes only where we let the shit out of books we love and hate. 

[00:00:25] Amanda: I'm Kelsey and I'm Amanda. And we are back with another lit or quitted episode. This will be our second lit or quitted episode for the month of December. And we're going to be discussing yellow face by RF Kwang. But before we get to that, just want to give you all a reminder about where to find us on socials.

[00:00:43] Amanda: As always, we are on Instagram at lit vibes, only. Underscore podcast. And we are on Tik TOK at Lit Vibes only podcast. You can also check out our YouTube channel at Lit Vibes only podcast. If you would like to watch this wonderful episode instead [00:01:00] of listen to it. 

Yeah. 

[00:01:02] Amanda: Oh 

[00:01:06] Kelsey: my gosh. We no longer are talking about stickers.

[00:01:10] Kelsey: That is, I know that I feel like that's why there was like that 

[00:01:12] Amanda: weird law. There was like, Oh, Oh yeah. I don't have to like remind people to rate and review us. I mean, please still rate and review us. We would love that. We would love that. We want to hear your thoughts, but there are no longer stickers that we are giving away sadly.

[00:01:24] Amanda: So that window has passed and when it was closed, I should say, , But yeah, and thank you to everyone who did participate in the giveaway. We appreciate y'all so much. It really does help us as a new podcast. So sending you lots of love and gratitude during this holiday season for giving us that gift of your support and encouragement.

[00:01:46] Amanda: We really appreciate it. So, yeah, we, we have been talking about The news, which at this point is not going to be like new news, , but I'm sure at this point, a lot of you have seen [00:02:00] that calling Hoover's Verity is not going to be a movie. The one we just covered 

[00:02:06] Kelsey: last month. 

[00:02:07] Amanda: Yeah. So if you didn't listen to our episode, this is your reminder, go back and listen to the Verity episode.

[00:02:13] Amanda: It was a fun one. For sure. I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed that one. Yeah. The topic in general. It was a book we, yeah, a book we both liked, which is. Yep. Doesn't always happen. So, , but yeah, so go ahead, 

[00:02:25] Kelsey: go ahead. I just feel like I know your tastes now and sometimes I intentionally have you read something that you will like, and I know you'll like.

[00:02:35] Kelsey: Aspect at least aspects of it. , and then earlier today we were talking 

about this other one and I was like, you're going to hate it so much, but I'm having you read it anyway. And then 

[00:02:44] Amanda: we have so much fun though. I, I love both types of literature. We like, we both love it or we're on opposite sides.

[00:02:51] Amanda: They're equally entertaining in my book. , but yeah, this movie that's coming out, I, I have some thoughts and I. [00:03:00] Put those thoughts out there on our Tik Tok. , at this point, I'll have been a month ago, roughly, but you're welcome to go back and check out my Tik Tok thoughts on it. But I know folks had feelings about the casting for Anne Hathaway.

[00:03:13] Kelsey: It's only Anne Hathaway so far, right? 

[00:03:15] Amanda: Yeah. But I think it's, it was mainly from what I could tell. It's mainly people who are not like, Oh, she's going to be bad for the role. It's more people thinking that she is It's kind of a sellout for like siding with Colleen Hoover after everything that happened with It Ends With Us.

[00:03:34] Amanda: I think they see her by doing this film, like, in some way, like, aligning herself with Colleen Hoover and because people had really strong feelings, obviously, about the whole It Ends With Us debacle, I think they're like, Anne, why would you choose to make a movie with this woman? 

Hmm. What are your thoughts on that?

[00:03:52] Amanda: I'm like, I don't 

think I have thoughts. 

[00:03:54] Amanda: I don't have strong feelings because I am not like a huge Anne Hathaway [00:04:00] fan. I don't, I don't love her. I don't hate her. She's just kind of, as you would say, she's kind of mid and for me, like, I think she's a talented actress. I just don't have like any strong, you know, feelings about her.

[00:04:11] Amanda: , I feel like, I feel like if I did, I would probably have more feelings maybe, but, , I think I'm more concerned about the fact. That another Colleen Hoover film is getting made because of how poorly things went the first time and different ways, you know, so I 

[00:04:28] Kelsey: guess I'm like interested in the train wreck.

[00:04:30] Kelsey: Like, I would love for another train wreck! like 

[00:04:34] Amanda: Verity and they would make such an amazing movie and I'm like, don't ruin this. Like it's such a weird, twisty, wild story. And it's a 

Yeah, I'm so excited to see Anne Hathaway in Verity's position. Like, Ooh, I think she could be really 

[00:04:51] Amanda: creepy. I hope that because they cast Anne Hathaway, that means that she's actually going to have a sizable role because in the book, Verity is just like in [00:05:00] bed the entire time.

[00:05:01] Amanda: So I'm assuming, cause we were talking about this before, like, they're going to have her, you know, in her flashbacks and things. There's no way you cast someone like Anne Hathaway and just have talked to 

[00:05:10] Kelsey: Anne. Yeah. And then they have to do the scene with , where her daughter dies. Right. And so I feel like it's just going to kind of be like this mismatch of like, what's reality and that would, could be really, really cool.

[00:05:21] Kelsey: Yeah. I'm excited about that. 

And her being creepy, like in her wheelchair and things like that, like staring at Lohan. 

[00:05:30] Amanda: Yeah. Well, I think like how they, it's going to be interesting to have to see how they depict like the blurring of truth and fiction in the movie. Right. How are they going to show us?

[00:05:42] Amanda: That they're like, not reliable, or maybe this is true, or maybe this wasn't. That's what I'm curious about. . I am also curious. Yeah. I think, and I also was telling you, I want to know, I, more than Verity, like, I want to know who's playing Loen. Like, that person has such an interesting task, [00:06:00] because as the quote unquote protagonist, yeah, they have obviously a lot of, are going to have a fair amount of screen time, and Oh, yeah.

[00:06:09] Amanda: You still need to be somewhat either likable or intriguing in order to 

You know, 

[00:06:14] Amanda: draw the audience in and Lohan, there's a lot of ways you could play Lohan. And I'm not sure how they're going to find that balance between like, yeah, she's likable. She's a protagonist, but also she's not entirely trustworthy and has her own little idiosyncrasies.

[00:06:29] Amanda: And yeah, I'm curious how they're going to pull that off. 

[00:06:34] Kelsey: Lohan. Yeah. Lohan also has a dark side, you know, she does. She 

[00:06:38] Amanda: does. And I'm curious how they're going to. 

[00:06:40] Kelsey: Where Verity is sitting down downstairs and Lohan's like, I'm going to fuck your husband tonight. I'm like, Oh, I don't remember 

[00:06:48] Amanda: that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she's not like this, like pure good character.

[00:06:55] Amanda: Like she definitely even, and again, even with her husband. Yeah. Oh [00:07:00] yeah. 

[00:07:00] Kelsey: So like, who do you think they should cast for? What's his name again? 

[00:07:06] Amanda: I don't even remember. My God, it's Verity. Jeremy. Jeremy. Oh okay. It's basic. That's right. That's right. That's right. Loen and Verity are kind of unusual names. And Jeremy is definitely pretty standard.

[00:07:19] Amanda: I, the thing is, I can't imagine, I feel like I'm struggling to imagine Jeremy without having a Loen in my mind. I mean, I guess we know who's playing. Sure. Verity. , I don't know. Oh, I also always struggle to like think of. Actor names, like off the top of my head. So it has to be some like, he has to be charismatic for sure.

[00:07:42] Amanda: And someone who like on the surface, like first impression, like, Oh, he's a good guy. 

[00:07:46] Kelsey: Oh, you know, it could be the guy. This could be a fairly good casting, I think. Okay. But, , it's, Oh, God, what is his name? He's from, , to Google this. Oh my God. Yeah. [00:08:00] Well, agent from Divergent where he's Oh, I mean, yeah, he could do a good job with this.

What is his name though? Wait, let me see. Okay, I'm just 

[00:08:11] Amanda: gonna look. Let's look this up. , I haven't seen that movie. Literally. Theo James. Theo James. Yes, him. 

[00:08:20] Kelsey: Oh, 

[00:08:21] Amanda: interesting. Yeah, I 

[00:08:23] Kelsey: think so. Because he kind of has like this dark look to him. Like he could have like, like an evil side to him is what I mean.

[00:08:32] Amanda: He 

[00:08:33] Kelsey: has a dark look that makes you know, his, his eyes do this like glaring thing. I don't know. 

You can't have like a really happy looking guy in this. Okay. So you couldn't. 

[00:08:45] Amanda: Okay. Okay. That's fair. Yeah. You can have like Zach Galifianakis or something. Zach, Efron. Like. Having someone like Zac Efron, who always plays like the good, the charming good guy.

[00:08:58] Amanda: Yeah. And that's just his default. But [00:09:00] then making the twist be that he's actually not so great, that actually might be more compelling than someone who you're like, Oh, I could see him being a little sinister. Yeah. True. True. Maybe. I kind of would want them to like take someone who always plays the charismatic boy next door kind of guy and then have that be, especially for folks who don't know the story of Verity and her going to go see it in the theater, that's going to grab them, I think, way more perhaps.

[00:09:27] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:09:28] Kelsey: If, if they cast Blake Lively in this movie, I will not go see it. 

[00:09:34] Amanda: There's no way they're going to risk that PR nightmare. There's no way they well, I don't know. They they're not that stupid, 

[00:09:41] Kelsey: but they got, they got a lot of Like press because of what happened. So maybe that was just like the whole thing behind it.

[00:09:48] Kelsey: I don't know. 

[00:09:49] Amanda: Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a possibility, like it's definitely not off the table, but I also don't like, there's no way that Anne Hathaway and like that dynamic between Anne [00:10:00] Hathaway and Blake Lively, like, I don't, I can't, I don't see that, especially because Lohan is younger than yeah, they already do, and I think that that age difference needs to be.

[00:10:12] Amanda: apparent. 

[00:10:13] Kelsey: But also Blake Lively wasn't very young looking for the role. That's what I'm saying. We had her in. Exactly. Yeah. 

[00:10:23] Amanda: Yeah. For sure. Well, I'm curious, like listeners, we definitely, I would want to know what you think about the casting. So if you have thoughts about who should play Lohan or Jeremy, we would love to hear your thoughts.

[00:10:35] Amanda: , cause I'm sure there are several. More than several like interest, interesting combinations that could work in this film. , but I'm definitely going to go see it when it comes out, even though I, I have Only if Blake Lively's 

not in 

[00:10:48] Amanda: there. Yes. Well, I honestly, I probably would still be curious enough to go see it because I do love this book so much, but I do feel, I think my one hesitation, and I did talk about this in my [00:11:00] TikTok video was just like, do I want to like financially support another Colleen Hoover venture.

[00:11:04] Amanda: , after everything with, it ends with us, but I guess it's not. She's not the only one, I guess, who's financially profiting off of it, but, 

[00:11:13] Kelsey: , yeah. And also we've read like two of her books and 

[00:11:17] Amanda: yes, but we didn't pay for them. I mean, I didn't pay for them. I got 

[00:11:20] Kelsey: them from the library. How did I? How did I read?

[00:11:23] Kelsey: Oh yeah. I, I bought Verity. Oh no. It's fine. It's totally fine. It was used. Okay. Well, that, 

[00:11:33] Amanda: that is better. , but yeah, so listeners, let us know your thoughts and, , let us know. And also let us know if you're planning to go see her, if you're like, no, I'm boycotting Colleen Hoover. Oh, totally. We want to, we want to 

have strong feelings over Colleen Hoover.

That's the thing. 

[00:11:47] Amanda: I mean, I didn't, and then all of this happened and I was like, Oh, it does feel like you're just kind of profiting off of this. thing that is touching on a really important issue and you're not giving it the, [00:12:00] yeah, kind of a tension and support that women and yeah, not to go on another tangent.

[00:12:08] Kelsey: Maybe I feel like I boycott a lot of things that really deeply affect me. Sure. So this seems trivial. Yeah. Yeah. So 

I don't know. I just don't have that like big 

[00:12:18] Amanda: of a, But you said you wouldn't go to see it and Blake Lively was in it. So I feel like I'm so, 

[00:12:25] Kelsey: I'm just like, he's not right for the role. And it would only be, see, I have big feelings over there.

[00:12:32] Kelsey: She would not be right for the role. And it would only be about fame and like power. If she was in this movie. 

Yeah, I would be so annoyed casting. It would 

[00:12:40] Kelsey: not. Yeah, exactly. It would not be good casting. Yeah. And that matters to me, apparently. 

[00:12:47] Amanda: Oh my gosh. Well, on that note, emphatic note, let us transition into our, our actual discussion for today that we can get [00:13:00] all fired up about.

[00:13:01] Amanda: So yeah, so I had Kelsey, like I said, I had her read yellow face, not yellow face, yellow face. Wow. By R. F. Kwong. And I chose this book for Kelsey because I liked that it was a book about books. So it's a novel about the publishing world, about writers. And I find that really fascinating to think about, especially as people such as ourselves who consume a lot of books and to get to kind of see the other side.

[00:13:31] Amanda: Of what happens in the book world. , it also touches on race. And again, you know, as, as women of color, that's something that we enjoy talking about and diving into and reading about. And so that was also a draw for me. And I think It is also a thriller kind of mystery book, even though it's largely contemporary fiction.

[00:13:51] Amanda: It does have that thriller mystery element. So I liked it for that. And I think lastly, as with a lot of the books that I choose for Kelsey, there isn't [00:14:00] like no one in this book is the hero, like every single character, , has some sort of, of either law or makes choices that are questionable. So there, it's not like, Oh yeah, this is the.

[00:14:14] Amanda: This is the person we're all rooting for. So yeah I will leave it at that. So Kelsey, short answer. Is this book a lidded or quitted for you?

It, I would say it's a soft 

[00:14:26] Kelsey: lidded, 

but 

[00:14:32] Kelsey: like, I just, I thinking about this, like, I don't really have that many strong feelings around it. , yeah, but it was a, it was a.

[00:14:41] Kelsey: Pretty good book. 

[00:14:42] Amanda: Okay. All right. We'll take it. A soft, a soft letter. I will absolutely take that and run with it. , so now it's your turn to summarize, try and summarize. I know it's been a while since you've read it and it's obviously been a much longer time since I've read it. So 

[00:14:56] Kelsey: do your best. while since I've done a summary.[00:15:00] 

[00:15:00] Kelsey: When was the last time I did a summary? Verity, I guess, or Verity, 

[00:15:03] Amanda: which Yeah. Yeah. Saw a month ago. It was a while 

[00:15:04] Kelsey: ago. 

[00:15:05] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:15:06] Kelsey: So Shake off the cop web. Here we go. Here's my attempt at, oh my gosh. Here's my attempt at, , summarizing yellow face, . 

[00:15:15] Amanda: You got 

[00:15:16] Kelsey: this. So. The two main characters, which Really, the one main character who's June Hayward, , and then the other main character, who doesn't end up being like a physical character, but more of a memory to June is Athena Liu.

[00:15:32] Kelsey: Both of these, , people are. Writers, and Athena and June at the very beginning of the book are hanging out and June really resents Athena because Athena is a very, , oh my gosh, successful. That is the exact word I was looking for. Successful writer and author. , Thank you. And she, you know, is living in a really big house.

[00:15:59] Kelsey: Like she has [00:16:00] all these like luxuries, , that June does not have because she is a struggling author. And so they're friends because they went to school together. And one night Athena invites June over to her house and Athena tragically dies because she chokes on a pancake. And, , it wasn't like a malicious act.

[00:16:20] Kelsey: June just like had no idea how to save her. And she called 9 1 1 and all of this. , but in the moments where Athena dies and like the medical team is there. June steals. Athena's current manuscript and takes it for herself. And June had been in a writing slump and was unable to, , produce anything worthwhile.

[00:16:49] Kelsey: And so she reads the manuscript of Athena's and starts editing it and starts putting it into her own words. And, , didn't do any of the [00:17:00] research for it because it's a historical fiction, , book. However, Athena cited all of her works and everything, , in her manuscript. And so basically June.

[00:17:12] Kelsey: Eventually steals her work and gets it published and be also becomes like a pretty well known author because of this book and, she decides to, , Put it out there that she was friends with Athena., it's kind of stabs her in the back later because she, Created this like through line with her and Athena, this connection with her and Athena. , and later on people start realizing that she's taken from Athena's works. But June goes. Like very overboard with all the things that she's doing.

[00:17:48] Kelsey: Her publisher has her change her name to Juniper Hayward or Juniper song, Juniper song to essentially make her sound like she's Asian. , because the book [00:18:00] that she publishes is about, Oh God, I don't remember, but it's like an Asian, 

[00:18:06] Amanda: Yeah, I think it's about like, it takes place during World War I. I think it's about Chinese workers or something in World War I.

[00:18:11] Amanda: Okay. It's something like that, 

[00:18:16] Kelsey: but she doesn't have much knowledge around it. Okay. And so she's moving on and, , I'm trying to think of like, what else happens? I know that she goes to an old folks home where they're all Asian and, , they assumed that she was as well. Like they didn't do like research behind her and like look up pictures of her or anything. , so when she gets picked up in the car, it's really awkward because there, she was like, Oh, what? Don't you speak a certain language?

[00:18:46] Kelsey: And she's like, Oh no. Like she never comes out and says like, I'm white, but like it becomes really glaringly obvious. And then she, speaks to these folks and yeah, it's just a really awkward encounter. And she ends [00:19:00] up feeling embarrassed , but. She always throughout the book, she's constantly like framing in a way where it's everyone else's problem and it's not her problem and that she's like really, projecting a lot of what she's feeling onto, , the fault of other people.

[00:19:16] Kelsey: And so she's really Making her actions okay and acceptable in her head. And she continues to spiral and spiral and spiral until she's like, eventually in this manic state. And eventually she does get found out. , this person outs her.

[00:19:33] Kelsey: And, , then she loses all of her credibility, but she's still wealthy and she still has all that privilege that came along with, selling the book and publishing the book. And. At the very end of the novel, she's lost everything, right? , at the very end, she's like, okay, now I'm going to write a novel about all of this and twist it into my own story.

[00:19:55] Kelsey: So it makes me look good essentially. And that's where it leaves you where it's like, oh yeah, of [00:20:00] course she's going to try to do that. Which. Probably could be successful when thinking about it and thinking about our world and race and all of that, like it likely would be a success for her. So that's how the book ends

[00:20:14] Kelsey: , and yeah, there's a few things I'm leaving out. It's like the ex boyfriend and, , some other things, but we can touch on that. , in our discussion. Yes. 

[00:20:24] Amanda: And I wanted to jump in quickly throughout the book, there are a couple of people, one of them being Athena's ex boyfriend, one of them being Candace, who works at the publishing house that June works for, who are like Not on board with what's going on and are suspicious of where this text came from, where this manuscript came from.

[00:20:43] Amanda: And ultimately, you know, , June starts receiving kind of these menacing messages from someone who's like, I know that you stole this and I, you can correct on Instagram. 

[00:20:56] Kelsey: It's not on Instagram 

[00:20:57] Amanda: or Twitter. 

[00:20:58] Kelsey: Oh, it might be on [00:21:00] Twitter. Okay. It's, 

[00:21:00] Amanda: it, it is a social media. Social media platform. 

Mm-Hmm. . 

[00:21:03] Amanda: And, this person keeps sending these threatening messages that she's gonna like Mm-Hmm.

[00:21:07] Amanda: or they are going to reveal this whole thing. They end up meeting one night. 'cause June is like, I need to figure out who this person is and make sure that I can protect. My success. And it, it turns out that it's Candace, I believe, right? Who is behind this all along. , and ended up outing her and Candace also decides that she is going to write a book about this entire experience with June stealing Athena's novel and et cetera, et cetera.

[00:21:39] Amanda: So everyone is out to make a quick buck and tell their story in the publishing world. So yeah, one other 

[00:21:45] Kelsey: thing that I want to add is that she has Athena's ghost following her and , it leads to this manic episode where she's just like, thinks that Athena is everywhere and [00:22:00] she's following her and, , causing these problems because she truly thinks it's Athena for a while who is messaging her and things like that.

[00:22:07] Amanda: , 

[00:22:07] Amanda: yeah. Yeah. She does definitely spiral a bit, which I think leads into more of like the mystery slash thriller, aspect of this book. , which kind of has , that stalker trope, right? Someone's kind of like out to get you and sending you threatening messages. Sure. And yeah, she does think it's Athena and we find out that it's actually Candace.

[00:22:27] Amanda: , okay. So I feel like we choose or I choose books or you choose books and they're hard to summarize. Oh, here at Lake is a lot of different things are happening and they're twisty. So it's always good if you can read along with us for the month and have read these books yourselves. Also you can then correct us if we say something wrong, but moving on.

[00:22:50] Amanda: So before we jump into like the full discussion, what were some things about this book that you enjoyed? We'll see you next time. 

[00:22:57] Kelsey: I thought her manic episode was like, well done [00:23:00] and well written because , you feel the emotions throughout and you're like, Oh damn, like she's going down 

some 

[00:23:06] Kelsey: like road you can't return from.

[00:23:09] Kelsey: , and that really is the reason for her downfalls. Like she's so paranoid that she just blurts out the truth of the thing. , To who she thinks is Athena, which turns out she's being recorded by Candace. , and you can see that happening, but she as the character can't see that that's happening.

[00:23:28] Kelsey: , which was interesting and fun. And the other thing that I would say is that this is actually a well done, , story from a white perspective. That is so like, , God, because we talked about it in horse, how you said, Oh, I thought the author did it this way because they're trying to like point out flaws in white culture and white perspective.

[00:23:54] Kelsey: But this actually, I think does it well, [00:24:00] reaching for, , the author does it well, I think because it's very clear that this is. completely like a joke, , around just this person, like in how problematic they are throughout the whole thing and how they justify their actions. Yeah. So. 

[00:24:21] Amanda: Okay. So just to clarify, I think what you're saying is the way that, yeah.

[00:24:25] Amanda: I think the R stands for Rebecca, the way that Rebecca Kwong, and this, oh my gosh is it Rebecca? Yeah, there's so many Rebeccas, I know, I'm pretty sure it's Rebecca F. Kwong. , but the way that Rebecca shows us white characters behaving problematic, problematically is done much better in this book than in Horrors because It is very clear that she's saying, Hey, this is problematic behavior.

[00:24:48] Amanda: Don't do this. Versus in a horse you're like, yeah. Versus in a horse you're like is, I think her name is Jess, right? Is the author saying what Jess is doing is okay. And doesn't take issue with it. Or is she's showing [00:25:00] us just in a way that's like, yeah, don't do this. This is bad behavior. , I agree.

[00:25:04] Amanda: I for sure. I agree. , and I think that's one of the reasons, one of the reasons why I liked this book because of the way that it, , kind of depicts. The way in which race and whiteness and white privilege, et cetera, can show its head, particularly in or show its face. I'm sorry, particularly in the show.

[00:25:22] Amanda: It's like me rubbing off on each other, like might show its face in the publishing world. so yeah, so let's get into it. So I. I'm trying to think of like a good place to start. I would say that I, and I mentioned this a bit earlier in this episode. One of the reasons why I liked this book is because initially you're set up to think that June is the villain, right?

[00:25:51] Amanda: And Athena is the victim. And Athena is the one that we should be feeling really awful for because she's the one who one who died and [00:26:00] then whose work was stolen. But as the story unfolds, you find that Athena herself has done some things that are problematic. And I liked that. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it, but I liked it because sometimes when we have a book set up where we have like a white character versus a character of color, 

[00:26:19] Amanda: , 

[00:26:19] Amanda: there can be a really simplistic.

[00:26:21] Amanda: Telling of the tale where it's like, Oh, the white person is behaving poorly and there go white people doing bad things again, right. And behaving in racist ways and like, Oh, like the virtuous person of color where that can be bad for both parties because it flattens. Both people and it flattens the experience of both people and then can create stereotypes or monoliths with which isn't accurate because we all are people have good sides and bad sides and make good choices and bad choices.

[00:26:46] Amanda: So all that to say, what did you think about the portrayal of, , Athena, especially

[00:26:53] Kelsey: my God. It's hard to think back to. I'm honest. Okay. I, I don't think I ever thought of [00:27:00] Athena as just like this victim even from the get go. So that wasn't very strong to me, , at the beginning of the book anyway.

[00:27:10] Kelsey: , but yeah, I was trying to remember , who are the storytellers? It was like her ex. Right. Who said some like shady things about her. , but you never really know, like if those things are real or not. But Athena and June's relationship is interesting and you never really understand why they're friends.

[00:27:31] Kelsey: , so I thought that that was an interesting part of it. I think that a lot of the book. Is kind of going over my head because I think there are nuances throughout the book that I did not , , catch on to, like, why is it that Athena seems like she is this loner actually. 

Yeah. 

[00:27:48] Kelsey: And is that what you got to?

[00:27:50] Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah. And that's why she wants to hang out with June.

[00:27:54] Amanda: I remember reading the book and not being completely sure because they, June and [00:28:00] Athena went to college together, like, you know, several years ago and they've gone their separate ways. Athena has become like this darling of the literary world and a bestselling author

[00:28:09] Amanda: and June hasn't, and their paths. at that point, there's no reason for them to cross. And I remember when I read the book at the beginning, I was like, why are they getting together to have, I think dinner? Like, why did Athena reach out? And I don't know that that's ever fully explained. I mean, one explanation is like, Oh, she's made it to the top.

[00:28:29] Amanda: Right. But now she's incredibly lonely because the publishing world can be very like, Dog eat dog and backstabbing and everyone looks out for themselves. And so once you've made it, if you have other friends who are writers, chances are, it's going to be really difficult to have relationships with them unless they're very like gracious, kind, empathetic people, because they're constantly going to be.

[00:28:51] Amanda: Jealous of your success and, you know, just create tension and like discomfort in that relationship. So maybe she was just kind of desperate [00:29:00] and was like, I need human connection. And even if it's with this person who I don't really have much of a connection anymore, we were friends at one point. So let me get back together.

[00:29:12] Amanda: With this person and hang out and spend some time together. I think that's why that's kind of what you got to him. Yeah, that's what, that's what I got from it. And you see even, you know, once, I mean, granted June does not great things to get to where she is in the novel and become a famous author. But yeah, once you attain success.

[00:29:32] Amanda: As an author in the publishing world, it does seem like it's a pretty lonely place. 

[00:29:37] Kelsey: Hmm. Hmm. 

[00:29:39] Amanda: That's what I got from the book. 

[00:29:41] Kelsey: And then in that regard, thinking about Athena's, I don't remember who tells us this in the story, but like some of her writing practices were like unethical, something about like, yep.

[00:29:53] Kelsey: Making interviews and not. , sourcing them, stuff like that. 

[00:29:58] Amanda: Yeah. , and that's what I liked because it's [00:30:00] easy even though you didn't do it. I did it. It's like, Oh my gosh, poor Athena. Like here's like this white woman taking advantage of her. And then you find out cause she's also done, like you said, unethical things in order to create these books that have gone on to become bestsellers where she is claiming other people's stories as her own.

[00:30:16] Amanda: She, and again, this is another detail that I'm not, I don't remember. But she, I don't remember, is she Chinese American? Is she, I think she's Chinese American, not Japanese American. I think so. Because she's 

[00:30:32] Kelsey: writing about Chinese topics. 

[00:30:34] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:30:35] Kelsey: Right. 

[00:30:35] Amanda: , but I, there's a point where I think she's pulling from other Asian cultures and heritages in her works and the ways in, yeah, the ways in which she's producing some of her manuscripts.

[00:30:45] Amanda: And she also, if I'm remembering correctly, she Took something from June's writing when they were in college. 

[00:30:53] Kelsey: Oh, yeah, that's right. And her exes. And what? And her exes. 

[00:30:59] Amanda: Yes, [00:31:00] I think so. Yeah. I think 

[00:31:01] Kelsey: that they, they were like, oh she did that to you too. But like the thing that happens is that June ends up like feeling emboldened, like, yeah, see, Athena wasn't any good.

[00:31:12] Kelsey: So like, I'm , justified. Yeah. I'm just going to totally justify my behavior. I deserve this or, you know, 

whatever it was. 

[00:31:21] Kelsey: Yeah, 

[00:31:23] Amanda: which yet that could like that sense of entitlement. And like I deserve this. Like, this is the way my life should have gone. , I think can tie into white privilege.

[00:31:34] Amanda: , so I think that is potentially a factor. I think it also could just be who she is as a character too. , but yeah all that to say in terms of June and Athena's relationship, I liked the fact that neither of them were wholly, innocent in their actions and intentions. They both did things that were problematic and one of the reasons why I liked this book was again, thinking about like what goes into publishing a book and how those decisions [00:32:00] are made.

[00:32:01] Amanda: I've got like, which books get published and which don't and how agents and publishers think about what does the public want to consume right now? And how do we package it to sell 

it? 

[00:32:11] Amanda: , cause even the way that they make her racially ambiguous by Juniper song so that they can get this book, you know, sold, it was just astonishing to me.

[00:32:22] Amanda: And then I'm at the same time, I'm like, I'm sure things like this, Yeah. Maybe not this exact situation, but the links that people will go to, to like sell a book. 

Yeah. No, there's 

[00:32:35] Kelsey: reason behind like every decision. Right. Like, , like I don't even know why RF Kuang. Decides to use their initials and not their full name, right?

[00:32:46] Kelsey: Like there, there is a decision behind that, whether or not that's malicious or not. Sure. There is a decision behind that. And it's very calculated. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

[00:32:55] Amanda: But I think one of the things too, like, as you're thinking about which [00:33:00] stories, this is the question, right? It's like, which stories get to get told, 

which 

[00:33:06] Amanda: stories are given, , priority in the publishing world.

[00:33:10] Amanda: And obviously it's a matter of timeliness. Like there's a book that. Might be published now in 2024. That would not have gotten published 20 years ago, depending on where society and the culture is. And so this book really like dives into that. And how do you decide? What story gets told and how and how you're going to market it and who gets to tell those stories.

[00:33:33] Amanda: And we talked about this before. For, and a lot of our previous episodes, like, yeah, does a white person get to publish a book about this Asian experience that they have no personal ties to? And does another Asian person get to tell the story of Asian people that are not their own, right? That's from a different culture or heritage, right?

[00:33:59] Amanda: [00:34:00] So it does keep, we keep running into this. Yeah. Theme, like in these books. And I think in this story, R. F. Kuang seems to be saying like, no, you don't get to. 

[00:34:15] Kelsey: Do you think so? Do you think that's like the overall, one of the overall themes and messages? 

[00:34:22] Amanda: I, that's, I think so. I mean, what do you think? Based on the way that the characters are portrayed, , both Athena and June, it seems like Rebecca is saying tell your own stories.

[00:34:34] Amanda: Don't steal from other people's. And for sure, if you are going to take someone else's story, you absolutely need to do all the appropriate things in terms of credit, crediting them, et cetera. , but in the publishing world, there's already a dearth of people of color. Compared to white authors, that's changing, which is wonderful.

And it's 

[00:34:52] Amanda: like, well, if there's an Asian story that needs to be told there, I guarantee you there's an Asian writer out there who can write this. 

Right. 

[00:34:58] Amanda: So why would you [00:35:00] essentially outsource that to yet another white person?

[00:35:02] Kelsey: I don't know. I actually wonder if this book is kind of an accumulation of her experiences in the publishing world.

[00:35:11] Kelsey: Yeah, 

[00:35:11] Amanda: I think it is sort of like There are 

[00:35:13] Kelsey: autobiographical moments in there. Oh, I would bet. , it's so interesting to think about. Wait, so, yeah, so what do you think then? I don't know if I, I think that the book is saying, that you shouldn't Be able allowed to tell other people's stories. I'm not sure.

[00:35:31] Kelsey: Okay. I mean, you don't have to have an answer on that. Yeah. I just, what do you think it is 

[00:35:36] Amanda: saying then? Like, what do you think the message of this book is? 

[00:35:39] Kelsey: This is the shit that happens in the publishing world. Like, I feel like it's kind of, Giving light to the situation, and see, like, doesn't it seem problematic?

[00:35:50] Kelsey: Like now you can see it with the way that I've described it and shared it. , And I think that it could help [00:36:00] people realize. , like what is actually happening? Mm-Hmm. that it's like undertones of like racism and Yeah. , all of that. So, I don't know. I, I don't, yeah. Yeah. No, 

[00:36:11] Amanda: I, but that's fair. I think, I mean, it definitely shows you, like you were saying, it shows how messy the publishing world is.

[00:36:17] Amanda: Yeah. But I think the thing that I found interesting, and this might be making it, I might be like making this a bigger point than it is potentially , excuse me. , it's just that like. If you are publishing stories about a particular group of people, whether it's based on their race or gender, , or their socioeconomic status or whatever, the stories that are chosen and then put out into the world as books that are going to be consumed by a wide audience, that is then creating a larger narrative about that group of people within society.

So 

[00:36:48] Amanda: if you are publishing a certain, , type of story about Asian people. And that is the type of story that we kind of see over and over again, that same type of tropes [00:37:00] or conventions or devices, then what it does is in society at large, we start to think of like, Oh, Chinese people behave this way, or Muslim people think this way, or African Americans act this way or indigenous people believe this.

[00:37:14] Amanda: So you have so much power. And so I wonder sometimes, and I think the book does touch on this in some ways. In this particular instance, it's about Asian Americans, , or Asians more, more broadly that the publishers are like, what, books can we publish about this group of people that are going to be accepted by society at large?

[00:37:40] Amanda: , because it's like palatable and it reinforces what they already think because if you're trying to publish like a bestselling book, which is what publishers are trying to do and you're pushing the boundaries , but in a way that's going to make people uncomfortable to, to uncomfortable, right. Or that's going to challenge them in a way that they're not ready to be [00:38:00] challenged.

[00:38:00] Amanda: It's not going to make money. So it's like this very fine line. Right. Am I making sense or am I just like, 

[00:38:07] Kelsey: no, you're making sense. And it's making me think about maybe it is saying like, it is problematic to have someone not of that identity and culture. I mean, the book is called yellow face, right?

[00:38:21] Kelsey: Like this woman is trying to be an Asian woman. Yeah. , through This writing and in order to profit, thinking about who enjoys this book, , and then who doesn't once they realize that she's actually not Asian, , and who finds a problematic, like, of course, it's the Asian community, right? Which in turn is just kind of highlighting like, Yeah.

[00:38:48] Kelsey: It is problematic for, for white folks to write about like a person of colors, experience or it can be, and who is being, harmed [00:39:00] by this, not white people, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. And I, I think it could be, , explained in that way where, 

[00:39:08] Amanda: yeah, 

[00:39:09] Kelsey: that is the point of. The book. 

[00:39:11] Amanda: Yeah. Maybe. Yeah.

[00:39:12] Amanda: And even in the book too, like the other thing that I liked about it is that in the response to her book that she publishes, , there are people in the Asian community who like it and there are people in the Asian community who are like, this is awful. So even within that, like, again, no culture is a monolith, no people are a monolith, no group is a monolith.

[00:39:30] Amanda: And so I did like that. additional nuance as well, because there are always going to be people, , because we saw that with trail of lightning, right? There were folks within the DNA and like Navajo community who were like, yeah, we love this. This is great. And others were like, how dare you? , and so 

[00:39:47] Amanda: there's never going to be everyone's on one side or the other. So I appreciated that she added that element as well, 

because 

[00:39:54] Amanda: it can be a nuance in a complex situation. But yeah, just thinking about, why do [00:40:00] publishers choose to publish the books that they do? What kind of criteria goes into making those choices?

[00:40:05] Amanda: And then more specifically, when it comes to stories about. Folks of color or marginalized communities, , especially if the folks who are making the decisions about what gets published and what's not, if the folks in that room are largely white or all white, that has an impact. You know, , and they're going to line up 

[00:40:22] Kelsey: our current standards and that's yeah, 

[00:40:23] Amanda: exactly.

[00:40:23] Amanda: They're going to likely choose stories like, Oh, that reinforces what I already think about X group of people. So yes, of course, we're going to publish that or like, Oh, I don't think, you know, a person of, of this particular background would act in that way. No one's going to believe this story. We're not publishing it.

[00:40:37] Amanda: Oh, what is the, the, , the movie that came out recently? I think it's called, I think it's American fiction. Have you seen it? It's the gist of it. I'm so, and I'm so bad at remembering , but the gist of it is that there's this black author, this black male author. And

[00:40:56] Amanda: basically his books have not been doing well, or his last book didn't [00:41:00] do well. . And so he decides to write a book about black people that essentially shows black people in a way.

[00:41:08] Amanda: And the way that many white people think of black people kind of in a stereotypical ways, because then you're going to make money. So he writes this book where he pretends to be like this, like hardened ex con, , he's not, he's like this bookish, like black professor type dude. , and he pretends to be like this ex con he's like writing like this story of like living out on the streets and like all of these stereotypes, right?

[00:41:31] Amanda: Yeah. White people have about. Black people like living in the ghetto and like lights in the hood. And so we play into that in order to write this book. And then of course it's like a bestseller. And so it, it very much aligns with a lot of the themes, I think, in yellow face and it's a really smart movie.

[00:41:48] Amanda: I highly recommend it, but 

[00:41:51] Kelsey: that came out last year. 

[00:41:52] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:41:53] Amanda: , 

[00:41:53] Amanda: It's very recent. I highly recommend it. , but it touches on a lot of the same things like in order to be [00:42:00] successful in the publishing world, in the media, et cetera, do you then just have to like serve people what they're expecting, you know? , and how much do you have to compromise?

[00:42:09] Kelsey: Yeah. Do 

[00:42:10] Amanda: that. 

[00:42:11] Kelsey: Because I, it even brings me back to the Colleen Hoover issue, right? Was it really just her saying that we need to market this book, that it's a rom com or was it like her entire team pushing her to do this? Yeah. 

[00:42:24] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:42:25] Kelsey: Because people don't want a sad story or whatever they were thinking.

[00:42:29] Amanda: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Who 

[00:42:31] Kelsey: knows? Yeah. I mean, people behind those doors really. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. 

[00:42:34] Amanda: Exactly. And it often, cause hello, we live in America. So it's often going to come down to like the bottom line and the profits that will come from it. , so yeah, I, I think I enjoyed this book because I, I hadn't encountered a book like this that dove into this particular topic.

[00:42:49] Amanda: Maybe you have, I, I hadn't. So I really liked exploring the way in which race might play a role in the publishing world. 

[00:42:59] Kelsey: [00:43:00] Yeah. , no, I don't think I have. I don't think Encounter. I read mostly fantasy.

[00:43:08] Kelsey: While we can touch on topics of like racism and sexism and things, and they do, , it's definitely not, not like this, not in this way. , that yellow face does. 

[00:43:18] Amanda: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about the book that you wanted to touch on that you had questions about or that stood out to you or that you really didn't like that? You wanted to dive into before we, I think move on to recommendations. 

[00:43:33] Kelsey: I, I don't think there was anything that I like really disliked. , I mean, I didn't like any of the characters . Okay. That, I mean, that makes sense. I think that's the point of the book. And normally I don't read books like that. I wanna love the characters or at least some of them.

[00:43:49] Kelsey: , so yeah, I didn't like any of the characters , so there was like no attachment for me. , to the book , which I think it, we were talking about this, like earlier, , the fantasy fan base [00:44:00] is like it's a giant fan base, right? And for things like. Contemporary fiction or historical fiction.

[00:44:07] Kelsey: It's like not in the same way, because I think part of it is because you don't really fall in love with the characters as often as you do with like romance and fantasy. , where in fantasy you have these series, you know, and you're like, I love these characters. I want to continue reading about them, which is kind of why there's like this different sort of fan base then.

[00:44:29] Kelsey: , Then something like contemporary fiction where it's typically like one, one book and it's done, you know, that's fair. So I don't, I'm not attached to this book in any way. So that's, for me, that's a sign of like, whether or not I really, really like something. , but. I thought it was like a well done book.

[00:44:49] Amanda: Okay. Okay. I mean, I will totally take that. I know this is not something that you would have picked up on your own and been like, Oh yeah, well, this sounds like 

something I would read. 

[00:44:59] Kelsey: My [00:45:00] husband read it, , maybe a year ago. I don't know when this came out. It was a while ago. He read it and he's like, Oh my God, it's so good.

[00:45:06] Kelsey: And I was like, yeah, it sounds boring. And, , yeah, I mean, I wasn't, I wasn't, Wasn't entirely wrong, but I'm not entirely right either. 

[00:45:17] Amanda: I mean, that's the whole point of our, we're doing this to like, have you read things that you would normally pick up and see if you like them or not. And it sounds like I will, I mean, I will take a soft, I will take a soft.

[00:45:27] Kelsey: I still don't think I would have picked this up, , on my own. No, it's not something I would have been interested in. Yeah, 

[00:45:33] Amanda: yeah. That's fair. So with that in mind, is this a book that you would. Recommend. What is your final recommendation? 

[00:45:41] Kelsey: , yeah, I would recommend it. It's not, you know, problematic.

[00:45:44] Kelsey: It's showing problematic issues, you know, touching on problematic, , issues, but, , giving those light rather than being problematic itself. Okay. , yeah. And especially for those who like to dive into, [00:46:00] like issues of our society. 

[00:46:03] Amanda: Awesome. Okay, cool. I mean, I obviously would also recommend it for all the reasons that I've already stated.

[00:46:08] Amanda: And I'm glad that again, it was something that Kelsey enjoyed as well. I think it's a great book. This was, we did read this book, I think in book club, but like after I had already read it a while previously, , and it is a great book to discuss because there's a lot there.

[00:46:25] Amanda: And I think if I had read this, reread it more recently, we probably would have dived a bit more into some of that, like the nitty gritty details. But I think we touched on a lot of like the overarching themes that the book touches on. And so if that sounded intriguing to you, like, I highly recommend checking it out.

[00:46:40] Amanda: She also has written a lot of A lot of other books. Some of them are fantasy. So like, , she wrote the poppy wars, which might be a bit too heavy and dark for you, but, , she's written that she's written Babel, that a lot of folks have read. So, , you can also check out some of her other things as well.

[00:46:56] Amanda: Okay.

[00:46:57] Amanda: So we're going to move into [00:47:00] our literally the best or literally the worst. And this is the part of the episode where Kelsey and I read one star and five star reviews from Goodreads for your education and entertainment. So I'll be reading five star reviews for this one, since I recommended the book and Kelsey will be reading 

one star.

Do you 

[00:47:21] Amanda: want to kick things off with your first one? 

[00:47:23] Kelsey: Sure. 

[00:47:24] Amanda: Okay. 

[00:47:25] Kelsey: Happy to. , so this was from Ashley from Goodreads. , and she says, this book feels strangely soulless. Much of it. I chalk up to the pros, which is as trite and uninspired as a college application essay written by a desperate 18 year old, but the entire concept of the novel itself, a satire of the publishing industry it's marginalization of what Asian writers.

[00:47:48] Kelsey: Is just executed, is just executed very, very poorly whole swaths of the book is spent on [00:48:00] inane. Is that a word? Inane? 

[00:48:02] Amanda: Okay, what does that mean? Like, mindless, and Inane 

[00:48:06] Kelsey: descriptions of fake Twitter drama. I have witnessed real Twitter discourse over breakfast cereal that was more interesting and entertaining than whatever was cooked up here.

[00:48:17] Kelsey: There are no actual characters only barely fleshed out mouthpieces that pop up when Kwang needs a vehicle for whatever message she is trying to convey at the moment. There is a very

[00:48:27] Kelsey: egregious and distracting author self insert character. And this story often comes across as Kwong's strange attempt to hit back at every single piece of criticism that has ever been lobbed at her throughout her career via this one self insert. Most importantly, this book commits the worst sin that any satire could commit.

[00:48:49] Kelsey: And that it's not even funny.

[00:48:51] Amanda: Okay. I mean, satire doesn't have to be like ha ha funny, so that's pretty one dimensional on their part. Yeah. It's very [00:49:00] interesting. Yeah. Also, you kept on saying like self insert? What? 

[00:49:04] Kelsey: Yeah. So it comes up in another one that I read where someone said they think Wong thinks she's Athena.

[00:49:13] Amanda: Oh, yeah. No, I came across it as well. Okay. I got it. Yeah. And so I think that's what they're referring to. Okay. I mean, she's definitely using, like we said, she's definitely using her own experience in the publishing world to inform this text, obviously, like, why wouldn't she? Okay. I will start with my first five star review.

[00:49:30] Amanda: This is from bookish realm and based on the picture next to this person's, , handle, I'm assuming they are. A black woman perhaps. , so here we go. So much of this book worked. I've seen the countless criticisms of Kwong inserting herself too much into this book, as well as the criticisms that indicate that there isn't much to be gained from reading this book.

[00:49:55] Amanda: I love it. Wholeheartedly disagree. Oh, my friends, there is much [00:50:00] to be gained. Neither of the characters is likable, and that is intentional. This isn't a way to illustrate that everyone in publishing is selfish, but a means to question how much the reader falls into the trap of engaging with the model minority myth.

[00:50:14] Amanda: The expectation that Athena is supposed to be likable is deeply woven in the psychological phenomena. That stereotypes, many Asian communities as successful, smart, likable, diligent, docile, et cetera. And the idea that a Athena doesn't fit into that role has made some readers feel uncomfortable, whether it is consciously or subconsciously BIPOC writers and creators are tired of the expectation that we are supposed to behave, create, Right.

[00:50:42] Amanda: And provide educational pieces and ways that make others feel comfortable. We're supposed to applaud white people for the amazing work they've done in allowing us to enter the spaces and give us the opportunity to tell our stories. It's laughable at this point. And while you all gave quang, [00:51:00] quang, sorry, these one and two star reviews, she's going to be laughing her ass all the way to the damn bank.

[00:51:07] Amanda: Yeah. I mean, she points out a lot of really great things. Some of the things that we talked about, we did talk about the model minority myth, but I kind of touched on it, 

[00:51:15] Kelsey: but we didn't speak to it like directly. Yeah. 

[00:51:17] Amanda: And she does subvert that, , in certain ways with Athena's character, , by not making her this sweet, likable, docile individual.

[00:51:25] Amanda: , 

[00:51:25] Amanda: okay. Your turn. 

[00:51:27] Kelsey: Alrighty. , this was from Clive, , Williamstein from Goodreads as well. One star review. One of the worst books I've ever read. There are no people in this book. There are only white people and Asian people and cishet people.

[00:51:44] Kelsey: Because you know how everyone fits neatly into those categories and it tells you everything you need to know about them?

[00:51:51] Kelsey: Question mark. When referencing or thinking about another human being, their race is the only real important thing to consider. I hate that [00:52:00] protagonist and not. For the reasons I'm supposed to, we are supposed to accept that this person believes in actual literal ghosts and makes decisions accordingly.

[00:52:09] Kelsey: Fuck off. I'll save you some time. White people are all bad. Successful people are all women. Dumb people are all men. Asian people are all awesome and hard done by feeling slightly guilty about being a piece of shit makes people believe in ghosts and attempt murder the end.

[00:52:27] Kelsey: Fuck this book and everyone who gave it two stars or more. Thanks Clive. 

[00:52:32] Amanda: Wow. Okay. Yeah, that's like completely. In, direct opposition to what we were just saying about how the fact that they're, like, nuanced and not just these basic likable people that fall into stereotypes. Wow. I think this person 

[00:52:49] Kelsey: didn't like that a white person was being, attacked in this 

[00:52:52] Amanda: book.

[00:52:53] Amanda: , that's a very different read of this text then than we had. All right. But to each their own. Thank you, Clive. All right. Moving [00:53:00] on. This next one is from Emily May. Another five star review. I found Kwong's babble, to be so painfully boring and didactic, like reading a textbook, that I thought we were parting ways for good, but then it seemed like everyone I knew read this and liked it. So curiosity got the better of me. And wow. Is this really the same author? What a ride. The suspense, the vitriol, the audacity.

[00:53:25] Amanda: I thought Babel lacked nuance, but yellow face is the complete opposite. Both June and Athena are complex characters. Athena is not allowed to simply be the perfect victim. And in fact, what emerges over the course of the novel is someone who is quite unlikable herself. June has done something objectively bad, but the author resists the temptation to paint her as one dimensional.

[00:53:46] Amanda: Her desperation and self delusion, her anxiety and her jealousy feel real. Kwong calls out the publishing industry and the messed up way books are primarily marketed through a social media performance. The young authors choking on [00:54:00] their jealousy as they're pitted against one another. The agents and editors urging authors to publish anything while they have social capital, regardless of whether it's good or not.

[00:54:09] Amanda: And of course, the way many in the publishing industry view diversity as a marketing buzzword to sell more books, rather than having the genuinely noble goal of diversifying literature as Brett June's agent admits at one point in the book. But at the end of the day, all that really matters is cashflow.

[00:54:30] Amanda: Yeah, basically it all comes down to the bottom line and like dollar signs and profit margins and all of that stuff. So yeah, Emily may, I think she hit the nail on the head with this one. I completely agree with everything she said.

[00:54:43] Kelsey: All right. My last one star review. , from Crystal Tipton from Goodreads, I did not enjoy this book.

[00:54:51] Kelsey: It was monotonous and boring. The main character stole a book from a dead author, made it her own and sold it for money. She [00:55:00] gets caught and just whines and whines the entire time when she finally admits to stealing it. Don't waste your time.

It's a basic 

[00:55:10] Kelsey: representation of like what actually happens in the book. 

[00:55:13] Amanda: Yeah. It sounds like they didn't actually try to engage with the tax. Like it was just like a really superficial, shallow read, but like 

[00:55:20] Kelsey: the main character is annoying. Like that. And she's supposed to be, I 

[00:55:27] Amanda: think they just missed that point.

[00:55:29] Amanda: Yeah. All right. Last one for me. , five star from Katie Coulson, RF Kwang did that. This woman fears nothing and no one. What a hero. She said, Talk about the publishing industry. How about the racism, misogyny, xenophobia, plagiarism, pretty privilege, and everything else revolting that comes along with it?

[00:55:53] Amanda: You don't want to acknowledge that? Well, too bad because I'm going to write it so well, you'll be begging to publish it. I thought that [00:56:00] RF Kuang was going to write about her experience with publishing through the eyes of the main character, but that's the direct opposite approach she takes. Her self insert is actually with Athena, the main character's college friend turned renowned author.

[00:56:12] Amanda: The main character is a depiction of mild mannered, racist individuals who shroud themselves in acceptance as long as it doesn't affect them and balk at the idea of racism until directly faced with equality and the loss of superiority it gives them. This is an excellent look at how real and deep rooted racism is.

[00:56:32] Amanda: It's everywhere and in everyone. It just isn't always shouting its ideals. It's sitting still while someone else does something harmful. It's diluting yourself when you get the job over someone of color, when you know you're underqualified. It's in so many small and micro ways, and it's absolutely vile to watch slash read.

[00:56:51] Amanda: But very eyeopening in a way that I think is necessary for the publishing industry as it stands. Yes, snaps for Katie. 

[00:56:59] Kelsey: [00:57:00] We didn't talk about that though, about how June did feel like really entitled to what Athena had. Yeah, we did sort of talk about it a little, but yeah, go ahead. A tiny bit, very tiny. , yeah.

[00:57:13] Kelsey: So that was also A huge part of like feelings overall. She's like, I'm supposed to have this. This is my life. 

Yeah, 

[00:57:21] Amanda: actually. Yeah. And it's like, well, that's the experience of so many people of color who like, actually I have earned this thing and I do deserve this job. And I have checked the boxes and I still don't have it.

[00:57:32] Amanda: Whereas like there can be not everyone, but there can be white individuals who perhaps are lacking those things, but just assume like I should have this because of the color of my skin. And yeah, that that plays out in all. Places and areas and industries, not just the publishing world. But I'm glad that, , Katie pointed that out.

[00:57:52] Amanda: Ooh, yeah, that's, , those were some great reviews and I think definitely spoke to some of the things that we. [00:58:00] Had mentioned, , in the discussion today. , Kelsey, do you want to do our socials as we wrap things up for folks? 

[00:58:08] Kelsey: Well, thank you everyone for listening in to our yellow face episode. And, , you can find us, , engaging in this content on Instagram at lit vibes, only underscore podcasts and on take talk at live vibes, only podcasts.

[00:58:25] Kelsey: And, , where else can they find us? YouTube. What are you going to find us on? YouTube as well. , at lit vibes only podcast. , if you, for some reason would like to contact us outside of social media, you can also email us at lit vibes only podcast at gmail. com. So we are everywhere. On the internet 

[00:58:53] Amanda: and we'd love to hear from you.

[00:58:54] Amanda: Yes. Especially, you know, as we wrap up this episode, if you have strong thoughts and feelings, as I'm [00:59:00] sure a lot of you might, , let us know what they are. So again, you can comment on this episode. If you're listening on Spotify, there's a fun little function, but otherwise hop on our socials.

[00:59:10] Amanda: And send us a message, comment on our posts, let us know what you think we want to hear from you. Yeah. Okay. We'll see you next Monday. See you next Monday. Bye. 

Bye.