Ep. 12: Lit Chats: Thriller Tropes

Join Amanda and Kelsey as they dive into the thrilling world of spine-chilling tropes, from the allure of dark academia to the twists of unreliable narrators. Amanda shares her favorite and least favorite tropes with Kelsey all while serving up witty banter and thought-provoking insights on what makes thrillers so addictive.

00:00 Welcome to Lit Vibes Only!

00:52 Social Media and Sticker Giveaway

02:25 Podcast Stats and Listener Demographics

11:07 Current Reads and Book Recommendations (spoiler alert for Lobizona!)

16:22 Thriller Tropes Discussion

18:01 Isolated Locales and Closed Circle of Suspects

23:39 Dark Academia

27:22 Toxic Friendships and Cults

33:25 Missing Persons

37:53 Unreliable Narrators

41:50 Stalker and Unhinged Ex Tropes

45:49 Tell us what you think!

Follow us on TikTok & Youtube @litvibesonlypodcast and on Instagram @litvibesonly_podcast. You can also email us at litvibesonlypodcast@gmail.com We'd love to hear from you!

See you on Mondays!

Transcript

Ep. 12: Lit Chats: Thriller Tropes
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[00:00:00] 

[00:00:03] Amanda: Welcome to Lit Vibes Only, where we lit the shit out of books we love and hate. I'm Amanda. 

[00:00:09] Kelsey: And I'm Kelsey. And I'm supposed to do something now.

[00:00:17] Amanda: listeners literally three seconds before we hit record, we're like, okay, what are you doing? What are you saying? What I'm saying? And then we always 

[00:00:25] Kelsey: do. I always know my part. I just know we always do that. Like, Oh yeah. Right before the episode. I'm sorry, Amanda, I was not including you in my brain fart.

[00:00:38] Kelsey: Just to clarify, but I was just. Like, I forgot that I directly go into it. That was my moment. Okay. Okay. Cut. Okay. I can do this again. Now I'm supposed to talk about socials. So. Please go find us on Instagram and TikTok and [00:01:00] YouTube, Instagram at Lit Vibes only under podcast and TikTok and YouTube at Lit Vibes only Podcast to engage with us, talk to us, tell us your theories about our various books.

[00:01:12] Kelsey: Please do. Let us know if you agree, disagree, all of the things. All the things. Have fun. So much fun. Now, the other thing that I want to tell you about is that we have created a deadline for our sticker review rating giveaway. So, there's a limited time now to get a sticker. And several more weeks to have it here, but I don't have, 

, never 

[00:01:38] Kelsey: before seen.

[00:01:40] Kelsey: Oh my gosh. Look at that. Amazing sticker. You want it on your water bottle on something else on your laptop, your phone, your candle, your candle, you want it. So. Come rate us, review us on any major platform, podcasting platform, and send us that review [00:02:00] and send us your address so that we can get it mailed off to you and you can have your sticker already.

[00:02:05] Amanda: You know, you want one, make sure that you include your address and then you can DM it, on Tik or send it to our email, which is lit vibes, only podcast at gmail. com. And we will promptly get that to you. Sounds good. All right. We survived the intro.

[00:02:25] Amanda: Okay, so we were just actually prior to this, well, prior to this episode, we were just having a chat about our like podcast stats, like our podcast data that we get on the backend from Buzzsprout and there, it's been interesting to see, like, who's been tuning in. 

[00:02:45] Kelsey: Like demographic. Yeah. Well, on Spotify, it gives us different analytics.

[00:02:51] Kelsey: So it's just from our Spotify, listeners, where the, in the last seven days, 50 percent of our listeners have been male [00:03:00] and then 44 percent have been women. That is 

[00:03:04] Amanda: so interesting. What happened in the last seven days? Cause normally, wait, what are our analytics normally? Cause I know it's like, 

[00:03:10] Kelsey: okay, I was looking at it and of all time, out of all of our listeners, 62 percent are women and then 25, 26 percent are male.

[00:03:21] Kelsey: And then 11 percent is like unspecified or didn't want to specify, you know? , but the last seven days is like, Slightly inverse. I was like, well, I wonder why. Yeah, I don't know. It's just maybe luck of the draw. I don't know if at this point we Should be like looking at it to see, , trends. I feel like, yeah, no.

[00:03:47] Amanda: Well, we've been doing like, we've been doing it for what this is. Our, we'll be releasing our seventh episode 

this 

[00:03:53] Amanda: Monday. Next tomorrow. , so it'll, [00:04:00] that's like a, you know, a month, almost two months. 

[00:04:03] Kelsey: You know what? , so the majority of our listeners, like 89 percent are within the age range of 28 to 34. So they like are age that also tracks.

[00:04:15] Kelsey: Yeah, that makes for sure so sense. 

[00:04:18] Amanda: other, like millennials are tuning into this. Oh, yep. I, I doubt there's any like Gen Z or boomers that are like, I mean I'm sure there are some, but there are 

[00:04:27] Kelsey: some. 

[00:04:27] Amanda: There are some, yeah. That tracks that. They're in the same, so 

[00:04:30] Kelsey: funny because generation, the other categories are 23 to 27 mm-Hmm.

[00:04:35] Kelsey: And then 35 to 44 that we have any listeners. Okay. And the other ones are like zero . Okay. So like 45 and above nothing and 22 and below nothing. 

[00:04:46] Amanda: Okay. That makes sense to me. What's the cutoff actually for, I don't know what the age range is for Gen Z actually or what the, the birth years are. 

[00:04:56] Kelsey: So I 

[00:04:57] Amanda: feel like.

[00:04:58] Amanda: Are you going to look it up right now? Yeah. Cause [00:05:00] I feel like my arc, like my high schoolers are for sure Gen Z. I don't think my middle schoolers are. I know what's the new one. I think they're Gen Alpha, right? 

[00:05:13] Kelsey: They should be like Gen 

[00:05:14] Amanda: Sigma. Gen 

[00:05:16] Kelsey: Z. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So a student told me the other day, you are Gen Alpha.

[00:05:19] Kelsey: Something about me was Sigma. I can't remember what they were referring to. Oh, what? What of it I was, Kelsey was like, thank you, . , so Gen Zers are born between 1997 to 2000. So wait. Oh, the high schoolers. 

[00:05:37] Amanda: Oh, interesting. I didn't know it was 1997. That means some of my siblings are, which I mean tracks, I think some 

[00:05:45] Kelsey: of my students were born in like 2011.

[00:05:48] Kelsey: Is that math adding up correctly? Yeah. Some of your middle schoolers, 

[00:05:51] Amanda: you mean? 

[00:05:51] Kelsey: Yeah. That's what I said. 

[00:05:53] Amanda: Okay. 

[00:05:53] Kelsey: Right. 

[00:05:53] Amanda: Yeah. Cause it's, yeah, that would make sense. Cause it's 2024. And so like probably like you're, Yeah. Yeah. So [00:06:00] only 

[00:06:00] Kelsey: half of them are really Gen Z ers and the other half are Gen Alpha. 

[00:06:09] Amanda: That's crazy.

[00:06:10] Kelsey: Crazy. Because, yeah, it's like 2012, 2013, 14 now that they're being born. I know. It makes me feel 

[00:06:18] Amanda: so old because I'm like, yeah, 80s and it's, okay, like kids, I remember the first time I was teaching. Students about nine 11 and they were like, they hadn't been 

[00:06:31] Kelsey: born. Been born. Yeah. 

[00:06:33] Amanda: Yeah. It wasn't like they were little, like they were not alive.

[00:06:36] Amanda: And I was like, oh my God. Like I'm officially old. I'm officially part of like ancient history 

[00:06:44] Kelsey: or at least history, maybe not ancient to 

[00:06:47] Amanda: them. It's ancient. Oh my God. They're like 

[00:06:49] Kelsey: 2001. That's so millennial, so 

[00:06:52] Amanda: so Boomer, I think I told you this. I don't remember where I encountered this, 

[00:06:57] Amanda: I think it might've been online. Yeah. I think it might've been [00:07:00] like a meme and like a student was researching a paper and they were asking the teacher if they could use a source that was from the late 1900s. That's how they framed it.

[00:07:11] Amanda: And I was like, Oh, we have a late 1900s. Like, wait, that was my adolescence and my childhood was the late 1900s. And it's like, Oh, that 

[00:07:17] Kelsey: is too funny. 

[00:07:18] Amanda: Ancient artifact. 

[00:07:20] Kelsey: That is. 

[00:07:21] Amanda: Oh God. Yeah. We're from the late 1900s, Kelsey. 

[00:07:24] Kelsey: We are 

[00:07:25] Amanda: technically. 

[00:07:26] Kelsey: Yes. You're older than me, right? I guess. I am.

[00:07:31] Amanda: Let's not dwell on that. , so moving on. Wait, wait. 

[00:07:34] Kelsey: But before we move on, I wanted to talk about like where people are listening. Oh, that's right. 

[00:07:40] Amanda: Cause you've mentioned. Go girl. 

[00:07:41] Kelsey: Because , it's so random. And okay. Of all time or it says last episodes, last 10 episodes, which we don't have. We don't 

[00:07:49] Amanda: have 10.

[00:07:50] Amanda: So it's all time. How many do we have? Eight or nine? We have six up now. Seven will drop tomorrow. 

[00:07:55] Kelsey: Are you sure though? The seventh one, I think is it ends with us. Oh, [00:08:00] that's 

[00:08:00] Amanda: right. So this is our eighth one. But we didn't, we didn't count it in the number. Yeah. You're right. 

[00:08:05] Kelsey: Okay. So, okay. So that's right then it's last 10 episodes, which includes all of our episodes.

[00:08:12] Kelsey: Yes. , so of course, most of them are in North America, which is like 52 are in Seattle. 

[00:08:20] Amanda: Okay. Which is 

[00:08:21] Kelsey: the highest number. Makes sense. And then, District of Columbia, Washington, D. C. Oh, that's D. C. Okay. Yeah. Fifteen. Okay. Oh, look at this. Thirteen in Ohio. Oh, yeah. I wonder where that comes from. Columbus, Ohio, specifically.

[00:08:37] Kelsey: Yes. I know those people. Twelve in Linden. Okay. So those might be people who know me. Okay. . Okay. Three. Nine in Denver, Colorado. 

[00:08:48] Amanda: Okay. One of my book club folks is in Colorado. 

[00:08:51] Kelsey: Okay. And then, , Paris, Paris, where the heck is that? Here, Paris, France. Oh, it is. Okay. I thought it [00:09:00] was. Yeah, it is Paris, France, but like, I thought it was, cause it said cities and I thought it was only within the United States, but it's not, it's all mixed up.

[00:09:11] Kelsey: So there, there is someone, five people from Paris, Germany, 

[00:09:16] Amanda: my friend, Leanne is over in Paris. So hopefully she's spreading the good word. It kind of looks like it because, and she also has been in Germany recently visiting friends. So I think she's like proselytizing, , for us and folks in Europe. There's 

[00:09:34] Kelsey: two in Lawrence, Kansas, which is some of the Saudi family.

[00:09:38] Kelsey: And I think it's specifically , his brother's girlfriend and her and I talk a lot about the books and stuff. She's an avid reader. , yeah, I'm trying to see if any of these, do you know anybody in Kentucky? In Louisville. I 

[00:09:54] Amanda: mean, my grandfather's wife lives there, but I don't know that she's, I [00:10:00] don't even think she knows I have a podcast.

[00:10:03] Kelsey: Yeah. So there's also some random 

[00:10:05] Amanda: places. I 

[00:10:06] Kelsey: love that. That 

[00:10:07] Amanda: means like lots of folks that we don't know are also tuning in. Like Vienna, Vienna, or like somewhere in America, 

[00:10:15] Kelsey: Vienna. 

[00:10:16] Amanda: That's awesome. Yay for Austria. 

[00:10:19] Kelsey: Well, yeah, I guess most of our listeners are in the United States, but then they're also in Europe randomly.

[00:10:26] Kelsey: And then one person from Chile. 

[00:10:29] Amanda: Oh, I love that. Okay. So our goal is like. Get on every continent except maybe Antarctica, although there might be researchers down there that like need to be entertained, but I'm curious 

[00:10:40] Kelsey: if it's the location of the phone or the location that they put in Spotify. Do you know what I mean?

[00:10:46] Amanda: Oh, that isn't really. Good observation. We will have to do some investigating dear listeners and we'll get back to you. , yeah, that is fun. I'd like them as we're going on [00:11:00] this journey. It's interesting to see how, and where, and when folks are listening to this podcast and engaging. , okay.

[00:11:05] Amanda: But before we get to our lovely little lit shots today, let's check in and share with folks what we are currently. Reading. , I'm happy to go first. Okay. So if you talk about it, if you listened to our lit wrecks episode for September, which was Hispanic or Latina heritage month, you will know that Kelsey is a huge fan of Lobie Sona.

[00:11:30] Amanda: By Romina Garber and based on Kelsey's both rave reviews and her synopsis of the book, which sounded fascinating. I decided to read it and I am officially sold. I'm a huge fan. I already am geared up to read like book two, which is Casa Dora. And, , I loved it. I gave it five stars. I don't wanna, I don't wanna give any spoilers, , , because I want other folks to go out and read it.

[00:11:59] Amanda: No, [00:12:00] but even if you are, do you want me to give spoilers? 

[00:12:03] Kelsey: Well, we can say. Okay. I, because there's one thing I wanna ask you about that I haven't been able to ask you about, but it's a spoiler. 

[00:12:09] Amanda: So spoiler. Well, it's okay. We'll give 

[00:12:10] Kelsey: spoiler alert the next minute. If you want to go, read this book, don't listen to the next minute.

[00:12:18] Kelsey: Okay. We'll put it in our show notes. Okay. Like where to start. , so were you surprised at the end with the same sex couple? 

[00:12:29] Amanda: Oh, by, , Seisan Kata. , yes. I did not see that coming. I obviously knew that Javier, like the friend, the big guy, like he obviously, I strongly hinted at that he's gay. , but I did not see that coming at all.

[00:12:45] Amanda: And I loved it. I was so shocked and I was like, Oh, this makes sense. It makes so much sense. And I like when surprises don't feel like they come completely out of left field. [00:13:00] Like now that I have that information, like when I was like reflecting back, I'm like, okay, no, like I can see that making sense. I can kind of see here and there.

[00:13:08] Amanda: So it didn't, yeah, it didn't completely just come up out of nowhere, but I loved that. Like, Twist, I guess. I don't think that's yeah. Right. 

[00:13:15] Kelsey: I mean, it was 

[00:13:15] Amanda: a shocking, it was a shocking revelation. Thank you. Yeah. Between that and the discovery of who her father is. And also I did, did I had zero guesses about that?

[00:13:27] Amanda: I, I would never have called it. And again, another reason I was like, yes, I 

[00:13:33] Kelsey: loved it. And I loved watching her like come into her own and like knowing who she is and comfortable 

[00:13:40] Amanda: literally in her own skin, like literally and figuratively. Yeah. 

[00:13:43] Kelsey: And there's just so many good themes and 

[00:13:47] Amanda: yeah.

[00:13:47] Amanda: Well, that's the thing, because , even though it's set in a fantasy world. , the social commentary around, , like larger issues around immigration and our country was woven in both [00:14:00] the fantasy world and the real world.

[00:14:02] Amanda: Yeah. So beautifully and seamlessly. And then of course, just kind of general coming of age themes as well. , it was 

[00:14:09] Kelsey: just, yeah, go ahead. The, , gender norms . 

[00:14:11] Amanda: Yeah. The gender norms. Exactly. Yeah. Like that was a big thing, especially in the, the fantasy world in Lunaris and how restrictive that wasn't problematic.

[00:14:22] Amanda: , Oh, it was so good. Like if you should read it, even if you are not normally a fantasy person, I think you will enjoy it. Lot. 'cause also it's not like 

[00:14:31] Kelsey: fully fantasy, right? It's , no, it takes place in the real 

[00:14:34] Amanda: world too. 

[00:14:35] Kelsey: Yeah. But it kind of goes in between both worlds. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , which I also loved it.

[00:14:39] Kelsey: Yeah. Gives some, 

[00:14:41] Amanda: and it literally blends the two worlds, right? Mm-Hmm. because, , , gosh, the, the place that, where's the school at? , what is It's not in Miami. The Miami, yeah. But what's the name of it's, , lab, , Lato. , , then it's the labyrinth in English, , but that's where the school is. And it is this halfway point, it's half Lunaris, [00:15:00] half the real world.

[00:15:01] Amanda: And so it literally is a blending of, yeah, our world and the fantasy world. Okay. 

[00:15:08] Kelsey: I'm done talking about that. But I just read that and I really liked it. What are 

[00:15:11] Amanda: you reading, Kelsey? 

[00:15:12] Kelsey: Well, I just finished. , you had me at Ola, which is my, which was one of my recommendations.

[00:15:21] Kelsey: I did that to just connect it. It was very cute. I really did like it. , it was fun too. Yeah, it was great. I also read another Alexis Daria. , and I was nervous going into Ola. What you had me at Ola, because I read at the end of September, , what was it? A lot like audios. And that one was like way more smut, like so intense.

[00:15:46] Kelsey: And I was like, what is this even for? Some of it was like a lot. And so, , when I got to, . You had me at Ola. I was a little nervous that it would do the same thing, but it [00:16:00] doesn't. And, , I was happy about that. Okay. So it wasn't just like smut for smut sake. Yeah. It was more, I think the other one kind of was, 

[00:16:08] Amanda: okay.

[00:16:08] Amanda: And I, you know, like a lot of people who read romance love it for that. And so , I can understand why. A romance author would like lean into that pretty heavily. , awesome. Okay. So we are doing our second lit chats episode today. Our first one was last month where Kelsey dove into romanticity tropes.

[00:16:28] Amanda: And so we thought we'd kind of balance things out. And today I would tell Kelsey about a few thriller tropes that I really enjoy. , as I was preparing for this episode. It was really interesting because unlike romance and fantasy where the tropes have a particular name and that name is consistent, like everyone refers to it as like forced proximity or grumpy sunshine or enemies to lovers .

[00:16:56] Amanda: As I was looking at multiple lists of thriller [00:17:00] tropes, they were multiple names for the same things or like different phrasing that was used. So it's not. And I think it's because when we talk about thrillers, The critique and conversations doesn't doesn't often focus so much on the tropes like it can in the same way that romance and fantasy books are like, really tropey and like you're looking for those tropes that really specifically put in there for that particular reason to folks are like, I don't know that thrillers operate the same way they certainly have tropes, but they're not talked about or, , I don't know, focused on in the same way, I think.

[00:17:35] Amanda: But with that said, I chose five that I liked, and I was trying to do it. Kelsey did where she like talked about some fantasy romance tropes that she really liked and then some that she 

didn't. 

[00:17:45] Amanda: But as I was going through the list, I was like, yep, I love that one. Yep. I love that trip too. I love that one as well.

[00:17:50] Amanda: So I only came up with one, but I didn't like, okay. Even that one, I probably would still read a book that had it as a trope. , okay. So [00:18:00] the first trope that I wanted to share with you all, , is isolated locales. And I actually combined this with another trope, which is closed circle of suspects because they're often seen together.

[00:18:16] Amanda: So isolated, the isolated locale trope is exactly what it sounds like. It's when the story takes place in a location that is isolated. Remote that is isolated from other locations. It's hard to get to that place. So, you know, a cabin in the woods, right. Or a remote Island, or, you know, you're on a boat in the middle of the ocean.

[00:18:40] Amanda: So, , close circle of suspects is where you have just one group of people that could be responsible for whatever crime. murder, et cetera, that has taken place. So I feel like those two tropes together are often go hand in hand. Cause if you're in an isolated location, [00:19:00] then you have a very set group of people.

[00:19:02] Amanda: , in that space that could be responsible for whatever went wrong. And I wanted to start off with this one because I feel like if you think about classic thrillers and mysteries, like the classic whodunit, you know, even if you're thinking about , Clue, right? You know, Miss Scarlet in the conservatory with a candlestick, right?

[00:19:22] Amanda: That would be, , a closed circle of suspects, right? Those folks. And usually happens at one location, right in the mansion or, or wherever. So if you think a lot about, I don't know if you've ever read Agatha Christie. , so you know, very well known, , mystery writer, , one of the foundational modern mystery writers.

[00:19:43] Amanda: And so I've read a couple of her books. I've read, , Murder on the Orient Orient Express, which was made into a movie not too long ago. , you know, and then there were none. And both of those involve, again, an isolated location, , murder on the Orient Express. They're on a train. Right. So while people [00:20:00] could get on and off at stops generally, like it's just the people on the train and it's just that location.

[00:20:06] Amanda: You're not hopping from space to space. And, and then there were none happens at a mansion, I believe. , and it's just the folks there. So I, I tend to like this trip one because it's more classic in nature often. And because, because it's a remote or an isolated or secluded location.

[00:20:25] Amanda: And there's that, that, , closed circle of suspects. It often is a book that's much more like mental and logical in nature. So you're trying to figure out the logistics of how could someone have done this in this space in this timeframe and gotten away with it. And so I like that kind of mental game that it involves.

[00:20:47] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[00:20:48] Amanda: , and like trying to figure out then who could have done it and how they could have done it. 

[00:20:52] Kelsey: Yeah, I would imagine too that the isolation, because we just read Verity, right? And that had come out [00:21:00] last week. But, there is a sense of isolation there too. Yeah. But I think in that sense, it was like isolating.

[00:21:07] Kelsey: The psychosis or like this, the, what do I want to say? Like you're mentally 

[00:21:13] Amanda: isolated from? Like, 

[00:21:14] Kelsey: yeah, they're mentally isolated from like sane people. So like, of course, like insanity is going to be happening in this circle because they're isolated from everybody else who is sane. Yeah. And 

[00:21:26] Amanda: also people are more likely to act out in ways that are problematic when they know no one else is watching.

[00:21:33] Amanda: Right. So that isolated locale, I think also emboldens people to make choices that are not great. , and cause yeah, like think about human nature, you know, when you're a kid, you're much more likely to go and sneak your favorite snack out of the pantry. If mom's not watching versus if someone is there keeping an eye or like, Got our students and choices they might make if they [00:22:00] know there's not an adult present.

[00:22:01] Amanda: And I think it's kind of that same thinking. And so you do find that a lot in thrillers and mysteries. I read. So if you've read any, which I doubt, cause I know you're not a huge thriller person, but Lucy Foley is a pretty well known thriller writer. Her books are kind of hit and miss for me, but. She wrote a book called, , the guest list.

[00:22:21] Amanda: And that takes place on,, this Island, this remote Island off the coast of Ireland. And it's where a wedding is taking place. And someone, someone winds up dead and we have to figure out who it is. , I read another book ages ago called the woman in cabin 10 and that one, it like takes place on a boat and somebody dies.

[00:22:37] Amanda: And it's like, okay, well, there's, there's only a certain amount of people, right? That could be a suspect based on who's on this boat or who's on this island. And usually in those books, Because again, it's remote because there's a closed circle of suspects. , there's a lot of creativity and how these murders or crimes take place.

[00:22:58] Amanda: And I really appreciate [00:23:00] that. Like the author really has to be smart and , Think this through logically as they're writing a story to , make this work in a way that is fairly plausible, but also gonna , keep us guessing and shock us. So definitely. Definitely a favorite trope for sure. Yeah. , yeah.

[00:23:22] Amanda: And you're right. It does factor into Verity, , to a certain degree because it really is just the three of them, you know, and that how, or if you count that little boy crew, , yeah. So that's the first one. , , the second one I think will probably maybe tie into like romanticity a little bit because I know like academia tropes in.

[00:23:41] Amanda: And so this is not a trope, but it connects to some thriller tropes and it's like the dark, academia subgenre. And I'm actually going to read a quote from book riot. com that kind of sums up really nicely that says, quote, thematically, it's all [00:24:00] obsession, obsession with truth, obsession with perfectionism, obsession with death and beauty.

[00:24:05] Amanda: The search for knowledge and uncovering a hidden truth comes at a cost. The protagonist is required to give up something treasured, such as friendship, privilege, or morality. And so like within this dark academia subgenre. A lot of bad things can happen. So these are thrillers and mysteries that obviously take place in a school setting.

[00:24:26] Amanda: It's usually a university because they're, they're adults, you know, committing crimes or, or, you know, older adolescents. , sometimes it'll take place at maybe like a boarding school, like a, like a high school. , so it's usually university or high school and, , it can either be events that are happening in the present.

[00:24:44] Amanda: Add in a school setting. So it's students who are currently in university students who are currently in high school and they do something bad, you know, someone, someone winds up dead 

or 

[00:24:53] Amanda: it's somebody who is reflecting back like, Oh yeah, 20 years ago. Right. When we like. [00:25:00] Killed our friend and like tried to cover it up.

[00:25:02] Amanda: And now the truth is coming out and everyone's in jeopardy. , so like the past is coming back to haunt them and they have to reckon with it in some way. And that's often the way dark academia will show up in the thriller and mystery. genre. , and yeah, I'm again, I, I enjoy reading about books about people behaving badly.

[00:25:23] Amanda: And so I really like this genre, especially cause I read both. Like contemporary fiction and thrillers that have this theme. So I don't know if you've ever read the secret history by Donna Tartt. It's another one of my favorite books and it follows this group of college students who make some bad choices.

[00:25:50] Amanda: And, and things unfold from there. And then the same thing with another book that I like, if we were villains, it's a group of students at a theater conservatory, [00:26:00] like this focuses specifically on Shakespeare. Okay. Someone winds up dead. And this one is where they're kind of reflecting back on the past.

[00:26:08] Amanda: So this happened years ago, someone was convicted of the crime and he's now been freed. He's out of prison. And , they're trying to figure out what really happened all those years ago. Yeah, I like that one. 'cause it gets, it can get really dark and twisty and the lengths that people will go to cover things up.

[00:26:25] Kelsey: Okay. So, I don't know. I've never read a book like that. I mean, okay. Academia, yes. But that typically just means like you're at a school. Sure. It's happening at school. So like LO has like, yeah, yeah. , they're like, it doesn't necessarily have ties to like. What you said at the beginning where it's like truth, obsession with truth, obsession with knowledge, like things like that.

[00:26:50] Kelsey: I'd have to look back at it, but I don't think so. Interesting. Because, 

[00:26:53] Amanda: because sometimes they're using their knowledge, the things that they're learning at [00:27:00] school, whether it be about philosophy or like worldviews and things to justify. Oh, these choices that they're making, which is definitely factors into like the secret history.

[00:27:10] Amanda: , so that's another one that I really enjoy. And it also then moves us really seamlessly into, to the next one that I like, which is , Toxic friendships slash cults. 

Oh, 

[00:27:22] Amanda: so obviously in dark academia, you can have a cohort of like schoolmates, right? Who are in really problematic relationships with each other.

[00:27:31] Amanda: And again, then leads to disaster. , and You know, it can also often have, again, themes of obsession, , where someone is obsessing over someone else or is really jealous of another person's life and then wants to take that for themselves and again, makes poor choices. But that, that, , also has connections to.

[00:27:53] Amanda: Colts, especially because that toxic friendship, one of the ways it can manifest as someone [00:28:00] bringing someone in to an organization or a circle of people that are doing bad things. 

[00:28:06] Kelsey: Interesting. Yeah. And so, yeah, yeah, go for it. That reminds me of this Atlas complex. That's like kind of what it is. It ended up being like a cold where they ended up having to, and spoiler for anyone listening, , for the Atlas six, you find out that they have to murder one of themselves in order to continue, like, Oh, God, this thing requires like a sacrifice.

[00:28:36] Kelsey: And so, yeah, that is a cult. That is definitely culty. Yeah, over knowledge, like over the desire for knowledge. 

[00:28:45] Amanda: Okay, so that actually, It does kind of tie into dark academia and in a way, because that quest for knowledge, what people are willing to do, I think in order to, to gain it, even if it's not necessarily in a school setting per se, there's that, that, yeah.

[00:28:59] Amanda: , so [00:29:00] with this one in terms of like the cold, , , it can kind of, again, show up in different ways. Like it could be someone who's perhaps trying, who's in a cult and is trying to get out and it was like trying to escape, and live their lives. , or , it could be about someone who wasn't a cult in the past and, , the ways in which the choices that were made.

[00:29:18] Amanda: Or like now impacting their present life, like the things that were done in the name of this cult are while they were a member is coming back to haunt them. And even if they weren't the person who did the thing, like the like mental and emotional impact. Yeah. It's taking and like how that's now playing out in their life.

[00:29:39] Amanda: , so when I was thinking about this, I was like, when is the last time I read a thriller with a cult in it? I couldn't think of one, but I did remember reading this book. You're going to appreciate this. It's technically historical fiction. , sort of like it's very, they took a lot of like artistic license, but it's called the girls [00:30:00] and.

[00:30:00] Kelsey: Okay. 

[00:30:01] Amanda: It's about the Manson murders, like Charles Manson and the women who were part of his group and how they fell underneath his spell, essentially, and, , ended up doing really horrific things, , as part of his, his cult. , so that one's not quite a thriller in that sense, but it does have some elements, I think, the thriller because of the murders that are in it.

[00:30:27] Amanda: , but usually the books that I've read that are thrillers are more about like toxic friendships. And it's funny because they're almost always toxic friendships with women. 

[00:30:37] Kelsey: Of course. 

[00:30:38] Amanda: Like, and it's women writing these books too, it's not like it's a male writer that's like, yes, female relationships are toxic, but , I read an anonymous girl or like the it girls, it's always women 

doing 

[00:30:51] Amanda: really horrible things to each other.

[00:30:53] Amanda: And I genuinely cannot think of a book that I've read about male friendships that 

I've read. And 

[00:30:59] Amanda: it [00:31:00] was really toxic, , , except for where it was like a group of people. So again, going back to the dark academia where it's a group of students that are both, you know, guys and girls, but rarely do you just see a thriller about two guys who were involved in a toxic friendship and like it went sour.

[00:31:17] Amanda: , that was interesting. I know. I'm like, I wonder what that, why that is. 

[00:31:20] Kelsey: Well, we know why that is, right? 

[00:31:22] Amanda: I mean, yes, but these are women writing these books and it's like you're reinforcing problematic stereotypes about women that were like vindictive and catty and are willing to murder if we feel threatened by the other women in our lives.

[00:31:43] Amanda: Like what? 

[00:31:46] Kelsey: That is strange. Yeah, that's like I mean, maybe we're, maybe this is like around the time where it's like shifting, hopefully, but let me know if we find books because, , this reminded me of a [00:32:00] book that's on my TBR. It's called bunny, which is again, read 

[00:32:03] Amanda: that on book club. We had so many thoughts.

[00:32:08] Kelsey: But it's right about a sorority, right? And it's kind of cultish. Yep. Okay. 

[00:32:12] Amanda: Yeah. And I was going to put that on the list and I was like, I already, I already have enough books. But yeah, Bunny by Mona Watt is both like culty and toxic friendships. Okay. And yeah, exactly. It has the dark academia thing going.

[00:32:23] Amanda: And I'm like, y'all are women writing about this, like consistently. And then I'm like, okay, well maybe, maybe there's a reason, like maybe as women, we all have experienced Yeah. Relationship. I mean, I know I have . Oh yeah. 

Mm-Hmm. . 

[00:32:40] Amanda: So maybe this is something really bad that we're doing to each other and we need to like, get to the bottom of it.

[00:32:45] Kelsey: Mm. , who would be too Yeah. The point of telling those stories. 

[00:32:50] Amanda: Yeah. To highlight like, Hey, women, we need to stop treating each other this way. We're not in competition with each other. We are together a marginalized group. Let's turn it around and support each other instead of [00:33:00] being threatened by each other.

[00:33:01] Amanda: , but yeah, I just, I thought that was really interesting. , so I have two more and I'll, I'll end my favorites with my, my absolute favorite one. But the other one that I really enjoy and I actually just read, , A book about this, not like a couple weeks ago, is the missing persons trope. So either they're on a quest to find someone who's gone missing, right?

[00:33:22] Amanda: And that's the point of the book. They're trying to find this person who's disappeared or, and I like this one better, is where someone went missing like 10 years ago and then they suddenly come back. And And we have to figure out where they were and what happened and why they returned.

[00:33:39] Amanda: And that was the case in the book that I read recently, which I think I actually mentioned in a previous episode that I was like currently reading or about to start reading it. , it's the return of Ellie Black, , by Emiko or Emiko Jean. And yeah, this girl goes missing. And I think it's like two years later.

[00:33:58] Kelsey: Damn. 

[00:33:58] Amanda: And she shows up [00:34:00] and everyone's like, WTF, where have you been? What happened? And, , you know, she's, she's being withholding. About where she's been and why and, , yeah, just like, I don't know. It just like sucks. Even there's like the mystery element.

[00:34:14] Amanda: Yeah. , I would probably like that. You would. I think you would. And it's not, they're not general. Well, they can be creepy, but I feel like they're not as generally creepy as some other. Thriller tropes. , I think the one maybe like trigger warning is that generally when people go missing, it's women. And oftentimes as women of color.

[00:34:36] Amanda: When we go missing, not a whole lot of people care. , and so I think most of these books, when it's missing women, the ones that I've read, they're almost always missing white women. , I don't think I've ever. read a thriller about a missing woman of color. , I'm yeah, they might, they're probably, they're probably out there, but I think it [00:35:00] also just speaks to the fact that generally as a society, we have much more of an obsession with missing white women 

versus 

[00:35:06] Amanda: missing women of color.

[00:35:08] Amanda: They get a lot more attention from the media and from, you know, police forces, the FBI, et cetera. And when a missing woman of color, when that situation arises, it's like, you know, and so I feel like that's also reflected in the literature, which is like, I mean, Mm-Hmm. . 

[00:35:27] Kelsey: Mm-Hmm. . , this, this reminds me of, did you ever watch the oa?

[00:35:33] Kelsey: No. It was that, it was on Netflix. The oa. Oh my God. Amanda, this show Oh no. Is so good. . Oh, okay. I thought gonna say it's so bad. No, it's so good. But it's exactly that. Where this woman went missing. White woman. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . . And then comes back all of a sudden, I don't know how many years later it was years.

[00:35:54] Kelsey: And, , and then, yeah, she's also not forthcoming about what happened, but it's [00:36:00] actually ends up being more like sci fi and, , okay. Extraterrestrial like was she kidnapped by aliens? So no, it's not like exactly like aliens. It's just like, and also I probably described that poorly, but it definitely is like a, it has a sci fi feel to it where it's more like, , a mystical type thing around being able to travel to different worlds and stuff.

[00:36:28] Kelsey: and It's very, very good. However, warning is that they only did two seasons and they were supposed to do five and then it fucking got canceled. And it was like my, it was seriously like the most anticipated show I've ever. Watched and then it just was like, cut was so, I 

[00:36:53] Amanda: still 

[00:36:54] Kelsey: think about this show every once in a while.

[00:36:56] Kelsey: It's something that has stayed with me and , I still [00:37:00] hope that somehow in some life that we get the other three seasons in whatever format it ends up being. But seriously, I would, I would read that. 

[00:37:11] Amanda: Well maybe I won't bother watching it 'cause I'm just gonna be like frustrated in your shoes. So's so good. Legal, just like read a synopsis of what happened. Okay. Won't do it justice.

[00:37:24] Amanda: Oh no. I mean, it wouldn't, if it's a good show, it's not gonna, okay. So, , my final favorite. Absolute favorite, hands down favorite trope is unreliable narrator. Love it so much because of the way that it like takes advantage of the fact that we're Instinctually, instinctively situated as readers to just believe the protagonist, like there's just that instant trust there.

[00:37:56] Amanda: And when that trust is broken or [00:38:00] the script is flipped on us. It has such an impactful to me, like powerful, , response in the reader. And I will never forget the first time I encountered this, , it was Gone Girl. And I think I'm going to have you read it probably, so I want to be careful about how I talk about it.

[00:38:17] Amanda: I've read or 

[00:38:17] Kelsey: I've, but that's a movie, right? 

[00:38:20] Amanda: It's also, have you watched the movie? Yeah. Okay. Okay, great. Well, then I won't. Okay. So, but that was the first time where I was just like, what just happened? Yeah. Did not see that coming at all. Had never encountered a book like that. And again, as somebody like I've talked about this before, I have read a lot of books.

[00:38:37] Amanda: I really enjoy reading and it can sometimes take a lot to surprise me or catch me like off guard. And that one like sent me reeling in the best way possible. , cause it just, yeah, it breaks conventions. , and when it comes to this particular trope, There can be like different reasons as to why they're unreliable.

[00:38:58] Amanda: It's not always malicious in nature [00:39:00] as it you know, we just talked about Verity and I would say like all three of them, Jeremy Lohan and Verity are unreliable in one way or the other. So it could be malicious. In nature, like maybe they're trying to cover up their tracks. Maybe they're intentionally trying to harm someone, or it could also be that , they have a flawed memory, due to substance abuse, they're abusing alcohol or they're abusing drugs.

[00:39:20] Amanda: I think, cause there's also an unreliable narrator in. The girl on the train, which I also read a while ago. And I think for her and listeners, you can correct me if I'm wrong. I think it was, she was abusing alcohol. And so her memory was like patchy and you couldn't always trust what she was telling you.

[00:39:38] Amanda: , or they could, you know, be suffering from a mental health issue, , where they're like delusional in some way, or they're hallucinating. , I literally just two weeks ago, read a book. The perfect son that had an unreliable narrator. And it was again, a situation where she was suffering from delusions, a delusion in particular, and didn't realize it, [00:40:00] you know, until another character was able to point that out at the very end.

[00:40:02] Amanda: Yeah. , but, , I love unreliable narrator. 

[00:40:06] Kelsey: I actually, so thinking. Back to none of this is true. I think that's why I did. Part of the reason why I didn't like that one is because the unreliable narration felt sloppy. 

And 

[00:40:20] Kelsey: so like when you're talking about gone girl, right, that's what it's called, right?

[00:40:24] Kelsey: Yeah. , you don't realize she's struggling from like mental illness. Right. And that to me feels like it's, it's a much better, , way to create an unreliable narrator, right? Rather than just like making these characters just like stupid. I 

[00:40:42] Amanda: think the main problem with you is none of this is true.

[00:40:46] Amanda: It's like you just did not like the characters and they were making dumb choices. , Yeah. And again, I don't, I don't disagree with you. I, I think there are a lot of other thrillers that do what she was trying to do much, much better. And I think that's why you liked Verity [00:41:00] two more than that one. , But yeah, I just, I love this trope so much.

[00:41:04] Amanda: And it's funny because often now when I'm reading thrillers, I'm always like, Oh, can I trust this person? Like now my default is , I don't trust anyone until proven otherwise, which wasn't the case before. , but yeah, so those are my, those are my like top choices. Honestly, I could have added a bunch more that I like because.

[00:41:23] Amanda: There are very few thriller tropes that don't hold some sort of interest for me, but the one that I don't usually go for and I don't seek out in a book is the stalker slash like unhinged ex. , What, why not Amanda? I think, you know, as a single woman living alone , and maybe it hits too close to home and like, just like a little bit too much for me to be able to fully enjoy it.

[00:41:48] Amanda: Maybe. I don't know. I just Don't tend to go for those books or be like, Oh, I love it. I read this synopsis and now I'm really intrigued. , but , when this shows up, it's either they really are the bad guy or they are [00:42:00] like, have essentially been like falsely accused and they're actually, you know, quote unquote, good person.

[00:42:06] Amanda: And we've got it all wrong. , and , I, maybe I would enjoy that more. They like subverted in that way, but overall, that's probably one of the tropes I read the least. And I honestly was trying to think about it prior to this episode. I'm like, I can't recall the last time I read like a stalker thriller, 

[00:42:25] Kelsey: just have to name any dark romance, 

[00:42:28] Amanda: which is again, probably why I wouldn't like a link to it to those two 

[00:42:34] Kelsey: genres.

[00:42:35] Amanda: I would never read that. I know folks enjoy it. I don't really understand it. I probably never fully will, but yeah. Yeah, again, I think as a woman, there's so much violence that can be and has been enacted upon us in such a variety of ways that I don't know. That I would seek, which I know, I know listeners are going to be like, wait, but you enjoy all these other tropes that have potentially like violence against [00:43:00] women.

[00:43:00] Amanda: But I think that one in particular feels very like female targeted, like the stalker, like men can have stalkers, but like, how often does that happen? I feel like it's usually a male, female dynamic. , so, Yeah, those are my, those are my like hot takes on, , my favorite thriller tropes. , definitely would love to hear from folks who have tuned in to see what your favorites are.

[00:43:26] Amanda: , definitely like comment below on this episode, if you're on Spotify or like, let us know on our socials. , or if you like, Totally disagree with me. You're like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe you'd like this one. And here's why it's problematic. I don't read it. , but yeah, I think there are, there are so many, I think the same with romanticity.

[00:43:43] Amanda: There are so many tropes. Like this episode could have been like double the length of, I went through a more comprehensive list, but these are the ones that like, when I see this, when I'm like good ones for a good thriller, I'm like, yes. I know I'm going to enjoy this book. 

[00:43:57] Kelsey: I was remembering when you were talking about [00:44:00] unreliable reader or narrator, I was like, Oh, wait, there's another one that I read.

[00:44:04] Kelsey: And I think it was by Nicholas Sparks, like by like all like people, because he normally just does romance. I don't know. I might be wrong about it because I was trying to look it up. I thought I could have sworn it was a Nicholas Sparks book. But, . Yeah. It's about this woman who's, who you think is running away from her, , abusive husband, but then you end up finding like, Oh, that's not quite the case.

[00:44:30] Kelsey: And, , you don't realize that through the whole thing until she's having like some psychosis and it's, it's really well written in my opinion, where you're just like, Oh shit, I don't know Okay. That's what's been happening. 

[00:44:46] Amanda: I love it. It's so good. All right. Well, listeners, if you heard that description and you're like, Oh wait, that's not a Nicholas Sparks book.

[00:44:52] Amanda: That's another book. Also let us know. I'm sure that's like a, 

[00:44:57] Kelsey: , like A popular [00:45:00] like trope, you know, or a line or plot, you know, I don't know. Oh, maybe not. 

[00:45:04] Amanda: Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it's stuff. I mean, obviously we know unreliable narrators are, but like that specific one where it's like a woman who's accusing a man of doing something problematic when she's actually the issue.

[00:45:13] Amanda: , I think that's, yeah, I'm sure that's in quite a few stories. and films and TV shows. Okay. Well, thank you guys for joining us for another lit chats episode. We hope you enjoyed it. We know it's a different vibe than like our lit or quit it or like our lit recs, but there's so many amazing, fun bookish topics to get into.

[00:45:34] Amanda: So if you have recommendations for bookish topics that you would like us to unpack and discuss together, also let us know and we'll add it. Yeah. Thanks for listening guys. We will see you next Monday and Monday.