Ep. 9: Lit It or Quit It: Trail of Lightning

Join Kelsey and Amanda as they explore the rich landscapes of Rebecca Roanhorse's 'Trail of Lightning'. They dive into discussions on Indigenous representation, nuanced character dynamics, and the heated debate on cultural appropriation, interwoven with personal anecdotes and reader reviews.

Follow us on TikTok & Youtube @litvibesonlypodcast and on Instagram @litvibesonly_podcast. We'd love to hear from you!

See you on Mondays!

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Community Message
• 0:51 Our Socials
• 1:37 Sticker Giveaway
• 3:51 Personal Updates
• 13:25 Book Discussion
• 52:42 Controversy Surrounding the Book
• 1:04:35 Final Thoughts and Recommendations

Transcript

Ep. 9: Lit It or Quit It: Trail of Lightning
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[00:00:00] A quick note before we begin. While Kelsey and Amanda enjoy debating for your entertainment, we want our listeners to know that Lit Vibes Only is an inclusive community that honors all tastes and respects all readers. Enjoy this episode! 

[00:00:19] Kelsey: Welcome to Lit Vibes Only where we lit the shit out of books we love and hate. I'm Kelsey. And I'm Amanda. And we're so glad you're back. Yay. We've been hearing such good things about, how folks are feeling about the, , episodes. So I'm excited to be back. 

[00:00:37] Amanda: Yes, I've had a couple of folks say that they wish they could like, jump into the conversation when we're talking, especially like during the littered or quitted episodes, they're like, I just have things I need to say, and I'm like, say them in the comments.

[00:00:48] Amanda: Oh, totally. Like, get on our socials, we want to hear from you. So, if you're listening to this, Next lit or quitted episode. We're about to dive into, and you have strong feelings. Please let us know, like listening [00:01:00] on Spotify, you can leave a comment on the episode or yeah, hop on our Tik TOK or Instagram, , which is like a beautiful segue into what our socials are.

So 

[00:01:08] Amanda: our Tik TOK is a lit vibes only podcast. Our YouTube is lit vibes, only podcast and our Instagram. The only one that is different is lit vibes. Only. Underscore podcast. So if you. Yeah, have thoughts that need to be heard that you need to voice about the books that we're discussing. Let us know. We want to chat with you guys.

[00:01:31] Amanda: We'd love to hear 

[00:01:32] Kelsey: about 

[00:01:32] Amanda: it. We want to get into it with you guys, so please do that. , and also another way to leave your feedback and get rewarded for it is to rate and review our podcast. So if you have been listening on Apple podcast, if you've been listening on Spotify or any other major. Thanks.

[00:01:52] Amanda: Podcast platform. If you rate and review us, we will send you a free, glorious Lit Vibes only sticker. We've already [00:02:00] sent out quite a few. So the number of stickers is, is dwindling. We only have 50. , so what you need to do, first generation, 

never before 

[00:02:09] Amanda: seen, and they have been seen so many times at this point.

[00:02:15] Amanda: But if you do want to get your hands on these, they are limited edition, there are only 50, so we'll, we'll go with that. But, , all you need to do, rate us, , on Instagram. Again, Apple podcast, Spotify. , and then, , you're going to want to write if you're on Spotify, write a comment on the episode for whatever reason you can't like review the entire podcast as a whole.

[00:02:35] Amanda: It's so, it's so weird. So, , leave an, a comment on an episode and if you're an Apple podcast, you can review the entire podcast. Take a screenshot of that comment, take a screenshot of that review and then send it to us. It's either via our socials, which we just rattled off, or you can send it to our email, which is litvibesonlypodcast at gmail.

[00:02:58] Amanda: com. Make sure to [00:03:00] include your address. And we'll get you your sticker and you're 

[00:03:02] Kelsey: going to be like, First generation. 

[00:03:07] Amanda: First gen limited edition. Has been seen before sticker. 

[00:03:11] Kelsey: Never before seen. In your mailbox. 

[00:03:16] Amanda: There you go. But yeah, also take a picture of your sticker when you get it. And like, wherever you end up sticking it.

[00:03:23] Amanda: And like, Tag us on socials. We'd love to see where these stickers are ending up as we're sending them. We literally just sent one to Paris. Oh, cool. Well, actually, hold on. Rewind. My friend is currently living in Paris. I take that back. I did send it to Canada and she'll get it when she's home for Christmas, but she's currently in Paris.

[00:03:41] Amanda: I see. Either way. Our stickers have gone international. 

[00:03:45] Amanda: It's exciting. That's kind of cool. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So excited. Lots of fun things happening. 

[00:03:51] Kelsey: Oh, so what's new, Amanda? Oh, 

[00:03:55] Amanda: what is new? I'm, I feel like I'm where Kelsey was last month with getting over being [00:04:00] sick. , I started getting sick on Wednesday night and you know, when you have like that tickle in your throat 

and 

[00:04:04] Amanda: your body just starts to feel like heavy and you're like really tired.

[00:04:08] Amanda: I was like, no, this can't be happening because the following day, Thursday, I had so much stuff to do. And then, and I'm someone, I don't know if you feel this way, but I have a lot of guilt about calling in sick. 

[00:04:19] Kelsey: Oh yeah. I think teachers. like in general, like educators. 

[00:04:23] Amanda: Yeah. I have so much like, unless I am literally dying, I feel bad about calling in.

[00:04:29] Amanda: So I waited until like four o'clock in the morning and I was like, you know what? I feel awful. I haven't slept. And so I called off the ironic thing is that on Friday, I was scheduled to get my flu shot. And my COVID booster and I couldn't get it because I was sick. And I'm like, Oh, I needed to get those shots in order to maybe not get sick.

[00:04:49] Amanda: And I got sick and therefore couldn't get them. So yeah. Yay. Irony. , but I'm feeling better now. Yeah. I'm on the mend. , so that's good. [00:05:00] And I. , the, the one exciting thing that's like not, Ooh, sad, sick, bummer. , I just signed up for salsa classes. Oh, fun. So I'm super excited. I actually know how to salsa already.

[00:05:12] Amanda: Like I know all the steps. Like 

[00:05:14] Kelsey: the basics. 

[00:05:14] Amanda: Yeah. But I suck at partnering. Like I cannot. Oh yeah. Dance with someone like, I don't know how I look. I don't know how to follow. I'm a leader. That's my 

[00:05:25] Kelsey: issue. That's my issue. I don't know how to follow. I don't know how to under, I don't understand the cues of like following someone.

[00:05:31] Kelsey: I'm like, 

[00:05:31] Amanda: yeah, like they're like, 

Oh, we're supposed 

[00:05:33] Amanda: to move 

this 

[00:05:34] Amanda: way, but you're not moving that way. Yeah. They're like, I like feel the way that I'm pushing. I'm like, I don't feel anything or I'm just in my own head, like feeling the music. So, , I start those in November, which it will be November when these actually the day that this drops.

[00:05:47] Amanda: Will be the first day of classes for me because they happen on Mondays. So 

[00:05:52] Kelsey: yeah, what day is this going to drop? 

[00:05:54] Amanda: This will drop. This will be the first, yeah, the first Monday in November. And that is my first day of Salsa [00:06:00] class. 

[00:06:00] Kelsey: Where, where are you doing it? Or maybe you don't want to say, no, no, no, it's, I don't mind.

[00:06:05] Amanda: , because, , I like sharing like fun things to do for folks who are local and Seattle and are looking for ways to, to get involved in the community. So, , it's at Viva Arts here in West Seattle. , which is where I'm located. And it's like the ballerico, , dance classes that they offer for adults. And, , they do more than just salsa, but I was like, I want to focus on salsa first.

[00:06:23] Amanda: So yeah, that's what's going on with me.

[00:06:25] Amanda: That's the most exciting things happening in my world. I know you have a lot of musical related things happening in your life. 

Yeah, I am so 

[00:06:33] Kelsey: excited. Okay. So just a couple days ago I got my, 

Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift eras, outfit for the concert I'm going to. 

[00:06:43] Kelsey: And like, when you say that, like, I understand Amanda.

[00:06:48] Kelsey: Cause I know you're not in this world, like of Taylor Swift, obviously. Cause you're like, I 

hate Taylor Swift. I don't hate her. Wait, time out. Just to clarify. Oh my God. No, you can't not backtrack. I think she's [00:07:00] overrated. I went to her concert at the movie theater. I don't hate her. I don't believe you.

Because when we first met, you were like, Oh, Taylor Swift.

Hate is such 

[00:07:15] Amanda: a strong word, Kelsey. I think she's overhyped. 

Okay. 

[00:07:20] Kelsey: You had a lot of things to say about her being a white woman. Like there was a lot. So I did have a lot. I equated a 

lot of that to hate. It was natural 

[00:07:29] Amanda: lover, not a hater. I just, I think I don't understand it. Anyway, 

[00:07:37] Kelsey: so it's a big deal to like, to go and get dressed up.

[00:07:41] Kelsey: And so you choose like an era that you're going to dress up in and I'm going as reputation. And, , Or I don't even know if that's the era. I think it is. , but anyway, it has to do with like, you know, kind of the dark side of, , of things. And so you dress in black and then everything is glittery and everything is [00:08:00] fringy.

[00:08:00] Kelsey: And so I have like this fringe dress. It's really fun. And, , yeah. Yeah, maybe I'll post them on our social since I'm like, , 

I'm 

[00:08:08] Kelsey: going to the Louisiana or Louisiana. Yeah. Louisiana show, which is in new Orleans. 

And, 

[00:08:13] Kelsey: , it was like last minute that we were able to get tickets. So I'm really, really excited.

[00:08:17] Kelsey: My husband is. Amazing. And got us tickets. And of course the tickets were much cheaper than the actual like trip. Of course the trip is really expensive because everybody was going, their mother is going. And so, , everything, everything's like hiked up. Right at the moment. So it's what it is, but I'm so excited.

[00:08:39] Kelsey: , do you want to hear 

[00:08:40] Amanda: something ironic? Why you're going to, you're not going to believe this, but I just thought of it as you were talking like, Oh my gosh, you hate Taylor Swift so much. So several years ago when I was living in New Jersey, a couple of my friends are like really into Taylor Swift, like big Swifties.

[00:08:54] Amanda: , and I, you're not going to believe this. I hosted a A Taylor Swift party [00:09:00] at my apartment. I dressed up as Taylor Swift and one of her outfits from one of her albums. Like I have picture proof. I will show it to you later. 

When I post my photos, we have to post your photos. That's fair. , but I'm like, yeah, Kelsey is never going to believe this, but it's true.

[00:09:16] Amanda: And I have 

evidence. I know. Interesting. You were just being a good friend. 

[00:09:21] Amanda: I mean, I was. I like some of her songs. But there are definitely songs that, oh, you know what?

[00:09:26] Amanda: I will say this. Her 1989 album. I listened to on repeat. When I was living in. China. So I, yeah, I, I don't hate her by any means. 

I 

[00:09:41] Amanda: appreciate some of her stuff. I just think, yeah, she's wildly overrated, overhyped for being a basic white girl. , and I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for that, but that's what I 

think.

Amanda, shut your mouth. We're trying to build our listeners. We're all going to be like, delete, unfollow. Please, please 

[00:09:58] Kelsey: understand folks [00:10:00] that we. I have a different opinion than Amanda 

[00:10:04] Amanda: podcast, right? We have differing opinions, but we still love each other. Now, 

[00:10:08] Kelsey: how do you feel about Shakira? , 

[00:10:10] Amanda: I don't have super strong feelings either way.

[00:10:13] Amanda: I know she was like, you know, hips don't lie. I was so big when I was in like high school. That's like all I know about Shakira. 

[00:10:19] Kelsey: Well, I have had an obsession with Shakira ever since I was a teenager and my Spanish teacher is the one to blame. It was so funny because when we were kids, we, I was at a school that did a lot of like, , had like technology infused with everything.

[00:10:34] Kelsey: And it was like at the beginning of where technology was like becoming a big thing and having computers, one on one computers. We didn't have laptops back then, but we had computers and the fact that we had one on one computers was like a big fucking deal at our school. At that time we were learning how to like make videos and music videos and like trailers and movies and stuff.

[00:10:56] Kelsey: And so my friends and I, we had to do a project. We had to do a music video and we [00:11:00] did a Shakira 

music video. 

[00:11:02] Kelsey: To 

which song? 

[00:11:03] Kelsey: And, , La Totura. Okay. , so it's a Spanish, it's a fully Spanish song. And it was so awful. I cannot tell you 

how bad it was. This also needs to get posted on our socials. No, I don't even have a copy 

[00:11:17] Kelsey: of 

that.

[00:11:17] Kelsey: I don't think, but I have the memory of it. I just have the memory of it. And so anyway, , my friend and I paid big bucks to go see her when he was living in Dallas. And so I flew down to Dallas to him and we went and saw her and it was the So fun. So fun. We both had like outfits that we had on for Shakira.

[00:11:36] Kelsey: And so we are going to LA. , for her concert. I'm so excited. So it's 

another outfit, like I'm working on building and it's, it's so fun to me.

Full time job, full time job. 

[00:11:50] Kelsey: So yeah, that's what's going on. , by this, by the time this comes out, I will have seen, , not Shakira, , Taylor Swift, but. , we'll still be, , [00:12:00] seeing Shakira like a week later or something like that. 

[00:12:02] Amanda: Okay. And then you also have Macklemore. You told me before that. Oh yeah.

[00:12:05] Amanda: I'm going to see Macklemore in November. 

[00:12:07] Kelsey: He's coming to Seattle. Seattle boy. , And he's going to be at the Benaroya. Like that's so. Oh. I just don't. Oh weird. Put those things together. And so I'm, I'm really excited because he has been touring and , yeah, it's just been a great show. So. 

[00:12:22] Amanda: Yeah. It's so funny because I.

[00:12:25] Amanda: I'm not a big concert goer. , I like, I don't like big crowds and they don't like loud noises. And so both of those things have been a big reason why I've never gone to con or don't really go to concerts. And I went to my first ever stadium concert last fall. , it was here at, , Lumen field, which for those folks who are not in Seattle, it's where the Seahawks play.

[00:12:46] Amanda: It's our football stadium and stadium. It's huge. And I went to all cold play there with a friend and I actually really enjoyed it. , I like wasn't out on the floor. We were like up in the seats, which I liked because I wasn't like crammed in with a bunch of people. And, , [00:13:00] just being in that space with that many people sharing that energy and like enjoying music together.

[00:13:06] Amanda: I was like, Oh, I get it. Now I get my people to go to like huge concerts. Cause prior to that, I'd only ever gone to like teeny, you know, teeny concert venues, , that can hold like, I don't know, a hundred people. And it's like very intimate. , and I'm like, Ooh, I maybe I, maybe I need to do this more often.

[00:13:20] Amanda: Like I get it now. There you go. There you go. Get right in. Exactly. Okay. So Kelsey, what are you reading right now? That's like, Oh yeah, I was like, I thought we were going to get into the book, but 

we're almost there folks. We're almost there. 

[00:13:36] Kelsey: , right now. So I am currently listening to, , the final, , book in the series for the Atlas, , That's the Atlas six I think is what it's called.

[00:13:48] Kelsey: , and so I, it's called like the Atlas complex, I think, or the paradox. I can't remember. , there's three books and so I'm in the last one and it's all right. [00:14:00] It's not my favorite thing. , it's very heavy on the characters. So if you're really into diving into people's emotions and how, humans are like super complicated and like constantly go back and forth and like, it's, it's fun.

[00:14:16] Kelsey: , but there's, there's like a mystery sort of, , and I'm curious if it, there is going to be like a big reveal at the end or if it's just gonna be like, kind of like a slow study thing. , So we'll see. , so I'm in the middle of that. And then physical book that I'm reading is Verity for our next 

recording.

[00:14:38] Kelsey: The beginning of that book, I was like, what the fuck just happened? 

[00:14:41] Amanda: Oh, you're going to be making that for the entirety of the book. It's a giant WTF book. And that is why I'm having you read it. 

Hey, we'll see, 

[00:14:49] Amanda: we'll see 

how, what I, what I think. It's going to be a good discussion. , 

[00:14:52] Amanda: yeah. 

Awesome. What are you reading?

[00:14:54] Amanda: I am reading, well, I just finished reading Claire of the Sea Light by, and I don't know how to pronounce this [00:15:00] person's name. I think it looks like it's Edwidge Danticat or Danticat. I don't know. Cause it takes place in Haiti until I know there's a huge French influence there. So I don't know if it's like, I see, should be pronounced in a French way, but it's interesting.

[00:15:13] Amanda: I was, , looking for something to read. And I have a bunch of stuff on Libby that's still like a couple weeks out and I was like I need something now that I can just like get on there and it's available now. , and so I went back, back, back, back, , in my to read list on Goodreads to find something kind of old that might be readily available.

[00:15:32] Amanda: And, , Yeah, I came across Claire of the Sealight, which a friend had recommended literally years ago. And of course it was available. And, , I really enjoyed it kind of like what you were saying about your book. It's not plot driven really at all. 

[00:15:45] Amanda: , 

[00:15:45] Amanda: it's, It takes place in this little town called Ville Rose and the frame story is that there's a poor fisherman who has a daughter who is essentially looking to give away because he can't, he doesn't feel like he can afford to take care of her and give her the life she needs.

[00:15:59] Amanda: [00:16:00] And she disappears on her seventh birthday. , but then it dives into like, I don't know, like five different storylines that, , look at the characters and the people in this town and the ways that their lives are intertwined, the different joys and triumphs and tragedies and losses that they've experienced.

[00:16:16] Amanda: And so it really just kind of like a study of, of this group of people, this community. , and it's really beautiful. It's, , a little bit slower, but it's a short book and the writing is like exquisite. And I got to learn a little bit more about life in Haiti, which was really cool. I And it's, it's very sad.

[00:16:38] Amanda: I know that you like, like books that destroy you. I think you would like, like it for that reason. Like there's a lot of tragedy, a lot of loss, a lot of heartbreak. , but it also has like, , hope at the end. , okay. Yeah. That's what I just read. , and I feel like it's a book that a lot of people are not aware of.

[00:16:55] Amanda: Yeah. , so yeah, so just like, it's a great book. It's totally underrated and [00:17:00] might've like, you might've missed it when it came out back in 2013, but highly recommended. Yeah. 

Cool. So 

[00:17:09] Amanda: I remember, so we didn't do this, I think last time you recommended a book, but you have to tell us. That's why you recommended Rail of Lightning by Rebecca Roanhorse for me to read.

[00:17:21] Kelsey: So there 

[00:17:22] Amanda: was a 

[00:17:22] Kelsey: couple of factors, , one, I really enjoyed the book and this is the physical copy. It's actually not too long of what it's like 300 something pages. I really enjoyed the fact that it was an indigenous woman's, , story and, , that she, , she like indigenous woman wrote it.

[00:17:41] Kelsey: And then also it was like this bad ass indigenous woman, , who was the lead, , in the story. And so I really loved it for , those aspects. And then also we are in, , indigenous heritage month. And so I just, I thought it would be a great fit. , and. I know that I've been recommending books that I knew [00:18:00] you would absolutely hate.

[00:18:01] Kelsey: And I really thought that you would like this one. So I threw this one in there just for you, Amanda.

[00:18:12] Kelsey: So those are the reasons why. 

[00:18:14] Amanda: Gotcha. 

All right. 

[00:18:16] Amanda: Well, now you have a question to ask me. So Amanda. 

[00:18:21] Kelsey: The shortest version, , after reading Trail of Lightning by Rebecca Roanhorse, is it a lidded or quitted? 

[00:18:28] Amanda: So I am pleased to announce that this is my first Lit It book that Kelsey has recommended. It's a Lit It with an asterisk.

[00:18:40] Amanda: We'll get into that asterisk later, of course. But yeah, I would, I would say that I overall enjoyed this book and I am planning to read more. The next book in the series. Oh my God. It's already 

[00:18:54] Kelsey: in my Libby, 

[00:18:54] Amanda: , like whatever lineup. 

[00:18:57] Kelsey: Sweet. Cause I I've also read that book and, , [00:19:00] I think it's just as good.

[00:19:01] Amanda: Great. 

[00:19:02] Kelsey: Yeah. Happy to hear it. 

[00:19:04] Amanda: So then I have to dive into the, the plot summary. Okay. Got this. I know I say this every single time and I'm sure our listeners are tired of hearing it, but I literally get. I'm nervous doing these plot summaries, , especially cause I've read a couple of books since I read this book, and so it's not super fresh.

[00:19:25] Amanda: , so here we go. So this is a post apocalyptic. Urban fantasy. And yes, I did look up the term urban fantasy because I had not heard that before. , Question 

[00:19:36] Kelsey: that too. I would question it, but 

[00:19:39] Amanda: I, I, when I think of urban, I do think of like a city and it doesn't take place in a big city, but everywhere I looked as I was like gathering information for this episode consistently, it was called an urban fantasy.

[00:19:54] Amanda: So, , but we can, we can dive into that in a moment. So. 

[00:19:57] Amanda: It is post apocalyptic, and [00:20:00] essentially, , a lot of the world, including most of the United States, has been submerged underwater after a series of like massive earthquakes. And so that is the world that the main character, Maggie Hosky, is in.

[00:20:16] Amanda: , I'm not sure if that's pronounced correctly. I also, as a quick side note, there were a lot of names and terms in here that are from the Navajo language, and I do not speak that language, so I'm going to apologize in advance if I mispronounce words. I know, and it's, they're not easy words to just like find.

[00:20:32] Amanda: They aren't. They are not. And I tried to. 

I did try to. So we 

[00:20:37] Amanda: apologize. I did not listen to the audio book either. So I'm sure that would have probably been helpful. And 

[00:20:43] Kelsey: I actually couldn't find the audio book. I listened to it back in the day. But, , now I could only find the hardcover and 

[00:20:52] Amanda: interesting.

[00:20:52] Kelsey: Yeah. So I was like, Oh, what's going on? 

[00:20:54] Amanda: Well, then I feel better. Okay. So I did, I just want to say I did try guys. I do try to be very respectful. [00:21:00] I appreciate that. Yeah. There's other languages and I, I could not 

find 

[00:21:03] Amanda: anything. , so I apologize. So Maggie Hosky is the main character. As a Kelsey said, she is an indigenous woman who is from the Navajo tribe and is inhabiting again, this post apocalyptic world.

[00:21:18] Amanda: And , she, , along with many other indigenous folks, since this massive earthquake slash flood, which is referred to as big water, , there have been all of these like magical powers and supernatural abilities that have started to appear, , in different individuals. And her power is that she has like super human speed and like this propensity for, for killing.

[00:21:40] Amanda: Like she's a really good killer. And the way in which she finds out that she has this power is when she's 16, she's living with her grandmother 

and 

[00:21:50] Amanda: they are attacked kind of in the middle of the night by this witch and the witch's group of monsters. The grandmother is like brutally murdered. And in this moment of [00:22:00] crisis, , her powers are materialized.

[00:22:02] Amanda: Like they come into being and her powers being actualized draws the attention of this demigod , this immortal. And again, I'm going to pronounce this wrong, probably nice Ghani, who is a monster slayer. That's kind of what he does. That's his, his identity, his MO. He goes out and he kills these monsters that have now entered the world because this Big water, apocalyptic event has released magic back into the world, has released gods back into the world.

[00:22:28] Amanda: And so he's out here like hunting monsters down and killing them. He sees Maggie's powers and he's like, Oh my gosh, like you would be really useful 

with your speed 

[00:22:36] Amanda: and your propensity for killing. So he kind of takes her under his wing. His wing and starts to train her, , years later. And we're not entirely sure why, but he leaves her.

[00:22:46] Amanda: , we get the impression that it's because he thinks Maggie is actually too violent, maybe a little too evil for his taste. At least that's from her perspectives, from exactly from her perspective what Maggie thinks. And so, , she is essentially a abandoned by [00:23:00] him. , and it's really difficult for her, really kind of up into her world.

[00:23:03] Amanda: Mm-Hmm. , she kind of wanders for a couple years. She, she becomes. A bounty hunter. She takes up with some people. And, , she has an older mentor called Ta, who, even though he's not a blood relative, very much acts kind of like her grandfather. Honestly, he's like this wise medicine man. And, , it's really her one real connection that she has and, , she is called to, called into a local community to slay a monster.

[00:23:31] Amanda: She goes in and kills it as she, as she does, but she has a hard time killing it. And she realized this monster is different from some of the monsters she's encountered previously. And so that kind of gets her wheels turning. She brings the monster's head to Ta and they're both kind of puzzling over like, what is this thing?

Ta 

[00:23:48] Amanda: has. A grandson, I believe it's a grandson and, , his name is Kai, Kai Arvizo and he's like this dashing, good looking man [00:24:00] who shows up on the scene and Kai too has clan powers and his are healing powers. , so very much the opposite of Maggie's like, she's a killer, he's a healer. And, , Tai kind of suggests that they work together to 

[00:24:13] Amanda: figure out where these monsters are coming from. And, , Maggie begrudgingly agrees. So they start working together. Ultimately, , they are visited by one of the gods, Coyote. And, , he's a trickster. So there's that, you know, you can't always trust what he says. And Maggie has had a kind of a long relationship with coyote.

[00:24:34] Amanda: He's kind of appeared in her life multiple times. 

[00:24:37] Kelsey: Yes. 

[00:24:38] Amanda: And, , so essentially I'm going to kind of move this along. , he tells her that she needs to find this thing called a fire drill and that will start to lead her towards. answers as to who's making these monsters and what they mean and where they're coming from.

[00:24:54] Amanda: So, bad things ensue. Taw's, , house is burned down. Taw is believed to have been [00:25:00] killed. Maggie's distraught. , they end up, , Killing a corrupt police officer in the town where Todd lives. And then they have to flee. And that's when they show up at, , , the home of a woman called grace.

[00:25:11] Amanda: Good acre. She's a black woman, which was like, yeah, more diversity. I love this. And she, , like Maggie is super bad ass as well. , and she runs this bar and kind of outpost, , And, , allows Maggie to hang out with her, , her and her children along with, , Kai. Now we're all joining together to try and figure out, , how to get this fire drill, how to beat these monsters.

[00:25:34] Amanda: So, as they're trying to find this monster, , one of the good acre children is horribly injured. , coyote shows up again and, , tells them that they need to go to this bar club. I don't really know how I would describe it. That is run by another God cat, which is like Mosey. I think that's how you say it.

[00:25:57] Amanda: , and she has the fire drill and [00:26:00] she promises to give the fire drill. To Maggie, if she can beat, , an opponent in a duel and she doesn't know, Maggie doesn't know who she's fighting until she gets into the ring and surprise, surprise. It's nice. Ghani. He's back. She hasn't seen him for forever. She still is not entirely sure why he left her.

[00:26:14] Amanda: They get into a fight. Maggie loses and he's gone. He doesn't kill her, but he does brand her and then kind of takes off high rescues her. , and essentially at this point, Kai and Maggie and Grace and the family, they're all like, okay, we need to end. We need to end these monsters. So they go to black Mesa, which is, , a really important location in the story, because that's where nice Ghani left Maggie.

[00:26:42] Amanda: , that's where they had their, their falling out. And, , at this black Mesa, there's a battle that happens. , the monsters show up, , Fighting ensues, Maggie ends up killing coyote. She finds out that coyote masterminded everything going all the way back to, , he [00:27:00] orchestrated her grandmother getting killed 

[00:27:02] Kelsey: and, 

[00:27:03] Amanda: , he like orchestrated The duel between her and nice guy, like everything.

[00:27:06] Amanda: He orchestrated everything because he hates nice Ghani. And he wanted to essentially create this powerful warrior that he could use to destroy nice Ghani. And Maggie does end up at the end of the story, , incapacitating, , nice Ghani and quote unquote, destroying him. I mean, there's, there's a good chance that he's going to come back.

[00:27:23] Amanda: He's like this demigod, but for the time being he's incapacitated. , she kills quote unquote Kai, , with the understanding that he's going to use his powers, his healing powers to come back to life. And so we end the story with Maggie and Ta waiting at like Ta's home or Maggie's home. I can't remember.

[00:27:41] Amanda: No, Maggie's home. For Kai to return to them, hopefully. And yeah. Yeah, that's, that's it in a nutshell. Can 

[00:27:49] Kelsey: you remind me why she had to kill Kai? There was a reason why. 

[00:27:55] Amanda: Yeah, so I think it was a way to show , nice Ghani [00:28:00] that, Oh God, now I'm trying, now I'm trying to remember a lot happened in those last couple of pages, but I think she, it was, she had to kill him, I think to show nice Ghani that she wasn't on his side so that she could get to nice Ghani and kill him.

[00:28:14] Amanda: I think. , 

[00:28:14] Kelsey: Something like that. Yeah. Something 

[00:28:16] Amanda: along those lines. I apologize for folks who like have just read the book of like, that's not what happened. But basically she, she didn't have a lot of options and she knew that Kaia had healing powers. And so the thinking was like, yeah. let me do this. , And it'll be okay in the end, hopefully fingers crossed.

[00:28:34] Kelsey: Yeah. And that's what you don't know at the end of the book. 

[00:28:38] Amanda: Yeah. So we don't exactly, exactly. , 

[00:28:41] Kelsey: so yeah, that's, well, thank you, Amanda. , So we got a hint of some of the things that you did enjoy about the book. , but do you want to start with the things that you enjoyed about it.

[00:28:53] Amanda: So there are obviously quite a few, since this is a lit it for me. , I, you know, I got, I can be on the fence when it comes to [00:29:00] fantasy. I'm not the biggest fantasy fan, but I think one of the reasons why I like this book is, I am a fan of YA. Dystopian and post post apocalyptic fiction, like, so that was already like a win in my book.

[00:29:13] Amanda: And I think you knew 

that what you 

[00:29:14] Amanda: yes, like, asked me to read this book. So that already was like a huge plus. It's just something I really enjoy a sub genre. I really enjoy. And then I liked that, although it was fantasy, it was more along the lines of magical realism. So they were still in our world and we weren't off in some like fantastical location with like a completely different set of rules.

[00:29:37] Amanda: , and it required like a whole bunch of world building. Like I appreciated that. , and then I, and there's a lot of things, but I think the other thing I really enjoyed is that, , as we've talked about before, Fantasy isn't always the most diverse genre, and in this book we have indigenous characters, we have black characters, we have a queer character, and while on the one hand it could feel like, okay, we [00:30:00] get it, like you're kind of dumping in all the diversity at once, I think because, , fantasy has been so, you know, white and straight for so long.

[00:30:08] Amanda: I'm like, it's fine. Put it all in there. It's time. It has been too long. So I really appreciated the, the diverse representation in the story, , as well. And again, as someone who is not indigenous and who loves to learn about other cultures and other peoples and other experiences, I also really liked the fact that this was a book that centered on an indigenous female character.

[00:30:31] Amanda: , 

[00:30:31] Amanda: and. , yeah, yeah. So I'll, I'll stop there. Cause there's a lot I can say about this book that I will shortly. 

[00:30:37] Kelsey: Yeah. And I, , I just want to say that I read a lot. Like half of it leading up to today, I just ran out of time and, , that the rest of it, I just read like the summary of the rest. , so my, like, especially the ending is not like super fresh in my mind.

[00:30:54] Kelsey: , but I read this back like over five years ago and, , It [00:31:00] was, and me and my friend were reading at the same time. She's also indigenous. And, , we just both loved the book together just because of the representation it has and like an indigenous woman writing about an indigenous woman, like it was great.

[00:31:14] Kelsey: And, , even just reading back through some of the things, even just the simple thing of like, , making coffee for each other, like that is a big part of our life where it's just like, if someone's coming over, like you all, you always like either feed them or give them a drink or like offer them something.

[00:31:34] Kelsey: , or if you're just meeting with people, that's what you have. Right. , and so that was really great. , like just kind of interwoven in my opinion, , I am not DNA, , and I'm in from, you know, the Northwest. And so I don't know like much about the intricacies of the DNA culture and, you know, there are similarities across the board, but, , for me, I saw that, , That [00:32:00] connection.

[00:32:00] Kelsey: , yeah. And so , that was really great for me as a young woman to see. , so 

[00:32:06] Amanda: yeah, it's so important to be able to like, and we've talked about windows and mirrors before, but I think it's so important to see ourselves and the stories we read and how meaningful that can be. And transformative and like affirming.

[00:32:19] Amanda: And I think that's one reason why I'm like excited to talk about this book with you, because obviously I'm situated differently than you are and reading these texts. And so, yeah, like I didn't necessarily know that about indigenous culture, about like offering food or offering something when someone comes to your home and how that landed with you.

[00:32:35] Amanda: Whereas like, that's something that I kind of just skimmed over. I was like, yeah, of course. Yeah, exactly. That's normal. , so, , yeah. And I think also As I was reading this book, because you just had me read last month, Divine Rivals, which we all know how I felt about that book. , I was thinking, I was thinking a lot about what I didn't like about that book and then what I liked about this book and [00:33:00] kind of was doing like a comparison and contrast.

Yeah. 

[00:33:02] Amanda: And. One of the things that I didn't like about Divine Rivals, and there's actually a lot of similarities between these books, right? They both incorporate, for example, like, or try to incorporate mythology. And I thought that Rebecca Roanhorse did a really great job of seamlessly blending, you know, elements of reality, elements of Indigenous culture and lore, elements of fantasy.

[00:33:27] Amanda: And it felt , cohesive and it felt like all of the parts, , had been carefully considered and, , I didn't feel like lost or discombobulated or at any point of like, why is she including this detail? Or what does this mean? Can you stop and explain it to me? I thought she did a great job of balancing both the pacing of the action in the story.

[00:33:49] Amanda: So I didn't drag at any point, 

but 

[00:33:51] Amanda: also. taking these moments to like, essentially educate us, , about, , indigenous culture, about Navajo culture. And [00:34:00] it didn't feel clunky. Like I felt like in divine rivals, , Rebecca Ross, Ross, it felt like the entire Plot would like stop and then she'd be like, let me explain to you this piece of mythology.

[00:34:14] Amanda: Whereas it was so, I think, beautifully interwoven into this story. , And I really appreciated that. , to me, just like night and day in terms of how they handled that. Yeah. , 

[00:34:24] Kelsey: I think that the other thing too, which I don't know that it's necessarily DNA, , mythology or just overall indigenous, like mythology where it's believed that it's the fourth world that we're in and every world like ends in some way, right?

[00:34:41] Kelsey: And so there, there was a flood back in the day, right? And that was an ending of a world. From what I've learned growing up is that there are different like. Worlds throughout. history that is something that is, , you know, believed by various indigenous, , tribes.

[00:34:58] Kelsey: And I couldn't say to you like what [00:35:00] exactly it looks like for Diné, but, , I thought that that was a really great, , interwoven piece as well. Because right now we're in a world where. You know, we don't have my living amongst us, right? But according to our mythology, they were 

like a living 

[00:35:16] Kelsey: thing.

[00:35:16] Kelsey: Right. And so she did have that incorporated into, Oh, this is the fifth world. And so it looks different. And this is why my eat and not Ghani is like here. Right. And so, , that was really interesting to me, whether or not that's like what indigenous folks like believe will happen. It's just that, she did her own like, , , creative, like, you know, , to create a license.

[00:35:41] Kelsey: Exactly. To create a license over like the story and how she wanted it to look. And so, , I thought that was a really great touch knowing that like, okay, yes, some big event is going to end the world and then create a new world. And then how does it look different than it did before? And so we're talking about these [00:36:00] monsters.

[00:36:00] Kelsey: We're talking about my E being like alive and like in the flesh and then nice gunny being, , an immortal being able to be here on earth. And so, , that was really interesting to me. And, , I, I loved seeing those, , things that I grew up with, like incorporated throughout the 

story.

[00:36:18] Kelsey: And like coyote, like was always, at least in the stories that I've, , been aware of growing up, like, yeah, he is a trickster and he is like, , someone that's going to, , go for the things that. Benefit him rather than the whole, right. And so similar to like the Raven where he steals the sun in the Northwest.

[00:36:41] Kelsey: That's like, , a, , a story that is told a very common story that's told. And so, , these folks are like tricksters and like, there's always a. , a symbol or a character or a person that symbolizes that, 

[00:36:55] Amanda: So I guess I have a question, , because listening to you [00:37:00] to talk, , is, and I, I'm not expecting to be like the expert on this.

[00:37:04] Amanda: , so if you're like, I don't know, that's fine, but it might be, I know obviously there are like hundreds and hundreds of indigenous tribes, both in North America, the continent and then around the world. And I am curious, like in the United States, , how much of the mythology is like shared between tribes?

[00:37:25] Amanda: Because you mentioned, even though you're not Navajo, which just also just to clarify for our listeners , correct me if I'm wrong, Kelsey, like Diné and Navajo is one in the same, correct? So that's what I found when I was looking this up, but I don't want to. Can't 

[00:37:40] Kelsey: be positive actually. , so the book is using Dine and so I, that's the, the word that I have been like saying, because I'm not positive.

[00:37:50] Kelsey: They might be like factions of like the tribe of the Navajo tribe itself. Cause I know that the Navajo tribe is like super expansive and giant. And so I [00:38:00] wondered if Dine was, , just like a portion of. Yeah. Tribe. The whole tribe. And then like, same in the book, it also describes the area, the land as dta.

[00:38:10] Kelsey: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. instead of Navajo. And so, , I was just continuing to use those words. Okay. 

[00:38:16] Amanda: I just, 'cause I was, when I was reading different articles, they were using interchangeably and they'd have like, DA and then they'd have Navajo in parentheses next to us. Like, oh, okay. Maybe it's, maybe, yeah. The same thing.

[00:38:26] Amanda: And maybe one is like the Navajo word for I, I wasn't sure. , but like clans is what I wanna 

[00:38:30] Kelsey: say. Like. Cause she does talk about clans in the book too. Okay. , but like, I'm curious, like, , yeah. What, what the difference is, but that was my 

understanding. Okay. 

[00:38:40] Amanda: I just don't want to confuse our listeners.

[00:38:42] Amanda: Like why is Amanda saying now though? And why is Kelsey saying, , but we can use DNA because that's what they use in the book as well. , but yeah, is, is it common? Like, are there, , stories and, , gods that are kind of, you know, Seen in multiple indigenous cultures, like going back to Coyote, you mentioned Graham hearing stories of Coyote, even [00:39:00] though you're not, , Navajo is, is that common to at least be a shared mythology across my 

[00:39:06] Kelsey: experience?

[00:39:07] Kelsey: , it is, but, , again, like some people are more like entrenched in their own, like, , traditions. And for me, like I had, I just had a different upbringing because I grew up on someone else's reservation. , while I was like learning all about their cultural traditions. Like I kind of take those on.

[00:39:25] Kelsey: Right. And that's been my understanding of the world, but my Tlingit traditions are very, very different. And I'm also Spokane. And so like, it's, it's all holds up. And for me, my life is just more of a mixture of the things that I've grown up with. But I also had some time like, , where I was over in, , Lakota country where they, you know, thinking about like a trickster.

[00:39:50] Kelsey: It told me was a, is a trickster and that's, , a spider. What I've noticed is that there have been tricksters. Throughout all the tribes that I've seen [00:40:00] and, , and read about or experienced, but they all show up differently 

[00:40:04] Amanda: I think it's, it's interesting.

[00:40:06] Amanda: This is a whole nother discussion. I feel like we should definitely do a, , another episode about it. Cause like when you said spiders, like, Oh, and don't see, right. Which is like from, you know, African folklore and like, it's kind of this like mischievous sort of trickster character. , so. It sounds like there's probably, which makes sense, like probably common characters across, , these myths that will, would probably show up in a lot of indigenous culture.

[00:40:27] Amanda: So I was just curious. , but I do want to talk about the characters. , because one of the things I really liked about the book was, , the fact, as you mentioned earlier in this episode, that Maggie is a badass and Rebecca Roanhorse did not mince words when it came to how violent.

[00:40:46] Amanda: And bloody Maggie is and also her experience has been and I appreciated that. Like I know it's a YA novel and, , you know, maybe that would turn some folks off or they might feel like it's too much. [00:41:00] And so I guess maybe there's a little bit of a content warning in there because the book is. It, yeah, she, she doesn't parse her words when it comes to like, what has been done to Maggie and what Maggie has done to others, both humans and monsters.

[00:41:14] Amanda: And, at the beginning of the story, like almost like right from the jump, she's like beheads both a monster and a girl, , a young girl just cuts their head off. , you know, she, there's a point in the story where she's imagining how she's going to kill. , These two, they're called law dogs or essentially like self appointed police officers that are largely corrupt.

[00:41:34] Amanda: , the way that she like butchers like the bad men at the mine. So there's like all of these instances where we see, , her just like going at it and we see that killer side of her and in a world where women are often told to be soft and gentle and demure, right? All of It's nice to see a woman who Is really rough around the edges who, is not [00:42:00] trying to be good and sweet and kind for any man.

[00:42:04] Amanda: And, in many ways, has embraced that. Like, obviously, she is a character who has been shaped by her trauma. And has some, she needs to go to therapy. She has some unpacking she needs to do. But I really like that Rebecca didn't shy away from showing us Maggie in all of her, like, wrathful glory. Because I think that can happen a lot for women and also in some ways, I like the fact that it like justifies, , maybe, maybe justifies the wrong word, but it kind of shows women that it's okay to be angry, like it's okay to have rage and like you obviously need to be mindful of what you do with it.

[00:42:40] Amanda: But I think it's important for actually young girls to see that because we're told we're never allowed to feel that way. And that we're being aggressive or bitchy or too much or whatever. And I liked that Maggie didn't follow the rules.

[00:42:53] Amanda: And I know it's a bit tropey kind of having the badass female fantasy figure, but for [00:43:00] me, especially cause I don't read a lot of fantasy, I actually really appreciated it. Like I liked that she didn't spare us. any brutal detail of Maggie's nature and just kind of served it right up . And, , yeah, I, I really liked that about her.

[00:43:13] Kelsey: Yeah. I honestly can't think of, , another character that is like Maggie, when thinking about fantasy. Cause yeah, you get a lot of like 19 year old, like badasses like out of nowhere, but it's not in the same. In the same way as Maggie, like I don't know. Maggie's not chasing after like love, right?

[00:43:37] Kelsey: Like she's not chasing after men, although she is heartbroken about nice Connie. It's just different. And her, like, there's a clear correlation with why she is such a bad ass, , and her trauma. And I think , Like you said, like she's not giving any shits, like she's just who she is.

[00:43:58] Kelsey: And like, she accepts [00:44:00] that. , and yeah, it is good character writing. 

[00:44:05] Amanda: And I loved it because you know, I just, it's good character writing. It's good writing in general. Like Rebecca Roanhorse knows how to write. And you know me, I love good writing. And I, I, that 

[00:44:14] Kelsey: literary, like, 

[00:44:16] Amanda: no, it's not, it's just like, she knows how to put together a sentence really well.

[00:44:20] Kelsey: Not only that, but just like, and develop like the details of a story. 

[00:44:24] Amanda: Yes, exactly. And I really appreciated that. And like, I'll go on a side tangent and then come back to characters because there's a couple more things I wanted to say. But there was this quote from the book that, and here I am with my excerpts again, but there's this quote that I really liked.

[00:44:39] Amanda: It's actually Neizghani when speaking to Maggie at one point in the novel. And he says, quote, words matter. The name you give things, it forms them when you speak. You must always be careful with your words, unquote. And obviously, you know, It works within the, the story itself, but kind of zooming [00:45:00] out, like, I think one of the reasons why I can be so critical of writing is because words do matter.

[00:45:06] Amanda: And for me, like, that's why good writing is so important. The words that you choose. To speak about and describe things, it matters, it shows care, it shows intention, it completely shifts the way in which a reader is going to respond. And I know that when Neskani was saying that, that was operating within the plot, but I took it in a different way, and it was like, oh yeah, like I think that's why, I've always been obsessed with words, like ever since I was younger, I love language, and For me, it's just such a gift when a writer has that skill and talent and shares it so brilliantly with all of us, because it does.

[00:45:43] Amanda: I know it doesn't matter as much for you, but like for me, it really does. shift the story. It changes the characters. It changes the way that we dive into a work. It changes the way that we respond to it. It changes how we think about things and how we perceive them. And so, yeah, , [00:46:00] I really liked that. And I was like, yes, this is what I'm, this is what I'm always trying to say when I'm talking about good writing, 

[00:46:05] Kelsey: I got thinking about like the, , the contrast that I and, , Maggie are put into, like, you don't really understand Kai's. Abilities, , for a while. And yeah, like he can see ghosts even like, it's just interesting, like how his powers are developing. , and he can control 

[00:46:24] Amanda: the weather. Well, control the elements, I should say.

[00:46:27] Kelsey: Yeah. And so, , when you first meet him, he really is this complete contrast to Maggie, right? He's this soft, like gentle, like able to, , solve issues and problems and conflict with. Like some peace and ease rather than violence, which, which is what Maggie is used to. And I know that her character sees it as like a flaw of hers, not being able to do this, but really it's just this, like, there are different ways to do things.

[00:46:57] Kelsey: It's like the message that I get [00:47:00] and also they're a great pairing. , Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. whether or not that's like romantic or team, just the team. , it's that there are different ways to do things at different times. 

[00:47:11] Amanda: , yeah, there's a time and place. Yeah. 

[00:47:13] Kelsey: Yeah. So that's why I liked about their pairing.

[00:47:16] Amanda: Yeah. Cause it's very nuanced. Like I think off the bat, you're going to look at, it's easy to look at a character like Maggie and be like, Oh, violence, bad, full stop. Sure. And. Okay, like peace healing yay, but you can see throughout the book, the ways in which they're each of their powers can be wielded.

[00:47:35] Amanda: We're good. , including Maggie's. And I think I love the fact that one of the things that Kai helps Maggie to do is to see her, , her gift as a gift because I think she has a lot of shame around essentially totally the kind of this violent killer quote unquote. But I think through the relationship, he, , Helps her work on some self love and helps her see the ways that she's like a protector [00:48:00] in many ways and like a defender and sometimes there are monsters who do in fact need to be slayed and That that's a good thing That's something that can be like virtuous and that can be celebrated and I thought that was really beautiful and to your point I do love the I loved the arc that Kai had because when he first showed up, I was like, Oh God, here we go again.

[00:48:21] Amanda: Divine Rivals, like a pretty boy with, you know, but I love their interactions and I love the way that he is really humble. You find out that he has like some pretty amazing powers. Yeah, 

exactly. The way that he 

[00:48:33] Amanda: like whips up that like whatever whirlwind thing to like suck up the monsters later on.

[00:48:38] Amanda: And yeah. And, , and Maggie's like, wait, WTF, what just happened? And he's like, Oh, you know. 

Yeah. Just 

[00:48:44] Amanda: sometimes 

I can do that. 

[00:48:46] Amanda: I really appreciate that because I definitely. misjudged him right from the start. Like this is one of 

Kelsey's books. And 

[00:48:54] Amanda: I loved being proved, proved wrong.

[00:48:56] Amanda: And, , he is, yeah. We're just this really compassionate, [00:49:00] self sacrificing humble character. That was a great compliment. To Maggie. , and then one other thing about Maggie's character that I liked is because if you look at her relationship with Niasgani, , it is problematic. He's older than her. There are elements I think of like manipulation.

[00:49:15] Amanda: I don't know that he ever like abuses 

[00:49:16] Kelsey: her, 

[00:49:17] Amanda: but like, I think he does. Maybe verbally abused her and that he gets her to believe that she's a really bad person. 

[00:49:23] Kelsey: Right. , 

[00:49:24] Amanda: and, and feeds that narrative to her until she has fully consumed it and believes it, which is what Kai has to then unpack. 

[00:49:29] Kelsey: Which is, I'm wondering why he, if that's part of the reason why he ended up leaving her, because the last thing that he said to her was like, something like you're a monster or something along those lines.

[00:49:40] Kelsey: And then she internalizes that once he leaves and is like, he doesn't want me anymore because I am so bad. 

[00:49:47] Kelsey: , 

[00:49:47] Kelsey: yeah, I'm curious because that in itself is a manipulation, right? And that's exactly how I saw him to where it's just, he was kind of like doing his own bidding. Yeah. Similar to coyote or my, [00:50:00] like 

he 

[00:50:00] Kelsey: was using her for his own end.

[00:50:03] Kelsey: And that was something that you. Hear about at least from the res that I grew up on, where it's just like, be careful about who's using you you just have to be careful with your own energy and like what you are, , what you're giving to others.

[00:50:19] Kelsey: And, , these, those people can be manipulative and that's like, An easy situation to kind of get into. And I think that that's what Maggie found herself in is like the situation where she put so much faith into a person that she thought was good. And he used her. 

[00:50:36] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:50:37] Kelsey: Well, 

[00:50:38] Amanda: cause he also, I mean, he found her at such a vulnerable time, right?

[00:50:42] Amanda: Literally in the moment after her grandmother had been brutally murdered. She's like, just discovered she has this power. She doesn't know what's going on. And so he like, Very much took advantage of this 16 year old girl who's going through an incredible amount of trauma. And I think one of the things that I love about the character is that ultimately she, again, [00:51:00] another really great character arc is ultimately she's like, Oh my gosh, nice guy.

[00:51:03] Amanda: You are problematic. 

I thought I 

[00:51:05] Amanda: loved you. I had these feelings for you. And in fact it was based in, again, a lot of emotional manipulation. And then in the end she defeats him. Like she comes back to kind of this manipulative, abusive, older man. crushes them. And I think that's really impactful and powerful.

[00:51:21] Amanda: And, you know, Unfortunately, because of the trauma that has been done to a lot of marginalized communities, , you know, domestic violence and, and abuse, emotional abuse is very common. It can be common in our communities. And I think, , as, as women of color, like we often are on the receiving end of that.

And so 

[00:51:39] Amanda: having this indigenous woman taking back her power, And defeating the man who took advantage of her and manipulated and abused her. Like, I really loved that for Maggie at the end and just like made me love this book a lot more. 

[00:51:54] Kelsey: Yeah. Both of the people that were manipulating her. She yeah. Yeah, [00:52:00] 

[00:52:00] Amanda: exactly.

[00:52:01] Amanda: Exactly. Both coyote and nice Ghani and kills them within the span of a couple of pages. Kind of. I'm not entirely sure what happened. She like put some rings around him and he like sinks into the earth and disappears. He's like stuck. He's like stuck in the earth, I think. Yeah, yeah. , and hopefully we'll stay there for, for quite some time.

[00:52:17] Amanda: But yeah, I think that's a really great message for young women, especially, , indigenous women, women of color, young women of color to see that. And again, I know there was a lot of kind of negative criticisms. Criticism of this book was like, Oh my gosh, here's like another, again, tropey, bad ass female character, but I think it means something different 

[00:52:35] Kelsey: or 

[00:52:36] Amanda: young women of color, young indigenous women who are then interacting with this text.

[00:52:40] Amanda: And my opinion. Yeah. 

[00:52:42] Kelsey: It's kind of a good segue into like, because there's a lot of criticism of this book that we haven't gotten into. , that has nothing to do with really. You know, the character development or anything like that. It's more of a bigger issue of like, should Rebecca be allowed to, , tell these kinds of stories?

[00:52:59] Kelsey: , [00:53:00] do you want to talk about like a little bit of what you saw? 

[00:53:03] Amanda: Yeah. So I went down a bit of a rabbit hole, , as I was getting ready for this episode. And, , didn't realize there was so much controversy around this book. I had no idea. And it largely revolves around Rebecca Roanhorse and her background.

[00:53:15] Amanda: So she, , was adopted when she was a baby and was raised by white parents. , she is half black and half Spanish Indian. She is, , not, , DNA. And, , so she was 

[00:53:27] Kelsey: Puebla or Pueblo. Is she? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 

[00:53:30] Amanda: Yeah. , so she's not, she's married to a Navajo man. Oh. , and spent time, , living among the Navajo people.

[00:53:38] Amanda: She actually got it, , went to to school and studied like federal and tribal law, and then she clerked for the Navajo Nation Supreme Court. So she has had. Interactions and immersion in the Navajo world, but essentially a lot of DNA and like Navajo people were outraged and upset that she was writing essentially their story [00:54:00] and in a way that they did not feel accurately represented their people in their culture and The DNA writers collective actually wrote an open letter kind of condemning the book and Rebecca Roanhorse.

[00:54:16] Amanda: And, , I did, again, me and my excerpts, there is an excerpt that I found, , in which they said, quote, in doing so, so writing this book, constructing Navajo people are stories from an outsider's perspective. A disservice was done to the Navajos as it also reinforced old and new stereotypes. Furthermore, Roanhorse's appropriation, especially as an in law who married into and lived on the Navajo Nation homeland and as an indigenous relative, is a betrayal of trust and kinship.

[00:54:43] Amanda: We do not want to let such breaches of faith and cultural contract slide any longer. So we write this letter objecting to the book. , and, and again, there's been a lot written about that. Also, just as a side note, They do use the term Navajo in here to refer a reference to themselves. I think it is [00:55:00] interchangeable.

[00:55:00] Amanda: It seems like, , and then the last thing I'll say, and then we can talk about them both together. This was from a vulture article that was published in 2020, , quote, but within native communities. The book's reception has been mixed. Although Roanhorse has many Native fans who have hailed her work as groundbreaking and revelatory, she also has a number of vocal detractors.

[00:55:19] Amanda: Not long after her debut, Trail of Lightning was published. A group of Diné writers released a letter accusing her of cultural appropriation, mischaracterizing Diné spiritual beliefs, and harmful misrepresentation. They took issue with Roanhorse's decision to write a fantasy inspired by Diné stories, and Since she is only denied by marriage and wondered why she hadn't written about her own tribe referring to the OK.

[00:55:42] Amanda: Oh, Okay. Owinga, , people of New Mexico and so, yeah, clearly like there are folks within the indigenous community that are like, this isn't your story. You shouldn't be telling it. And we don't like the way in which you told it. 

And, 

[00:55:56] Amanda: , yeah, I, I have feelings. , I think It's not as black and white as that, but I'm curious to hear [00:56:00] first, like your response.

[00:56:03] Kelsey: Yeah, I, it's complicated, right? So, , I have somewhat of a similar story to Rebecca, ? Like where I didn't grow up on my reservation. Like I grew up in someone else's reservation. And so, , and so my connections elsewhere. Like are not with my tribal community. So I'm, I'm curious, like if I wrote a book , and the Lummi nation would condemn that, right.

[00:56:31] Kelsey: Like, I'm just, I'm curious, like how that would go. Like, is it a similar feeling? , I, it's hard for me to say, or have a definitive, answer to any of that because I don't. I can see how the Navajo or Diné people would feel like that's cultural appropriation because, you know, that's not her story to tell.

[00:56:54] Kelsey: , and I would be curious to know more about their perspective and like why it was a [00:57:00] misrepresentation, , of it. Cause I'm just curious to educate myself a little bit, , about that. I'm But, , to me, like in a general,, although it was taken and set in Dne Deneta or the Navajo Nation in that area, like it felt more broad than, , just, , the culture that is of the Navajo. So I'm curious, . Maybe nice gunny is like someone, , that is from their traditional stories. But coyote is from like across the nation, right?

[00:57:35] Kelsey: So I'm curious, at what point, it felt like this was not appropriate. , so I just want to know more about that aspect. , I want to respect people and where they're at and, , understand that it can be harmful when people. Like just what we read about in horse, it can be harmful when people are not from that specific culture and identity.

[00:57:54] Kelsey: And I think the other thing too, is that, I asked the same question where it's like, why didn't Rebecca like [00:58:00] choose to do a story from her own homelands? And is it because she's not connected to them? Like, I'm, I don't know. And then in that sense, like, is. That a reason to use someone else's stories, right?

[00:58:14] Kelsey: Like, or should that not have been written at all? 

[00:58:18] Amanda: So it's funny you mentioned that because as I was reading, cause I was reading a little bit about her story. And so she was a quote unquote secret baby. , and she did a lot of work. She's a private detective to figure out her roots. And when she went back to the, , people to her community, , she was essentially told like, Like, we don't, we don't want you here.

[00:58:38] Amanda: , like you weren't supposed to be. , and so she felt I think really rejected and, , is one reason why she, I don't think he's ever like officially like joined, that tribe. , cause I think when I was reading, it wasn't for them, it's not based on blood quantum. It's based on lineage. And so she could, if she wanted to, but I think because she felt so rejected, she didn't.

[00:58:59] Amanda: [00:59:00] And as perhaps one reason why she chose trade about. The Navajo people, because, , it sounds like again, from her experiences, she's felt much more. Welcome and included in that community and has spent time actually living, , in the Navajo homeland. So I think that's why, , I think, you know, it's interesting because, , so much has been taken from indigenous peoples.

[00:59:23] Amanda: Everything, right? Lives. Land, culture, language, like literally everything. And so I think it makes a lot of sense, , for a people to want to hold on and take ownership of that, which is theirs, especially at this point. And so I think that kind of gut reaction, like, no, don't take our stuff. You've taken so much of our stuff, please just like, let us have this and let us do with it.

[00:59:48] Amanda: What we want to do with it. I very much can. Like. Empathize with that. And I get that. , and it didn't, it doesn't surprise me in any way. , and I think that's, yeah, justified and [01:00:00] understandable. And so again, it, it does go back to like, well, who, who gets to tell what stories and is it just a matter of like, well, I did a lot of research.

[01:00:09] Amanda: And perhaps even got approval from some members of the community trying to like, is that enough? , is it ever going to be fully okay? , I, I don't know. I, I was thinking I was trying to reframe this to give myself a way to think about it. And another one was like, okay, I just read this book, all fours by Miranda July, which is about this woman going through essentially midlife crisis, et cetera, 

and exploring 

[01:00:30] Amanda: a lot of themes about womanhood aging.

[01:00:32] Amanda: And I thought to myself, what if a man wrote this book? What if a man did a ton of research, you know, interviewed a lot of women, et cetera, and wrote this book about the female experience? How would I feel? And my gut reaction was like, oh, hell no. Like, what? Like, first of all, why do you want to tell this story?

[01:00:48] Amanda: Like, why are you choosing as a man to write this story? I want to know more about your intention. And then, even if it, even if it did perhaps accurately reflect the female experience, I think some part of me [01:01:00] would just be resistant to it. Always. Yeah. So, yeah. I don't know. Again, this is not, I don't think either of us had the answer.

[01:01:08] Amanda: I don't think there is an answer . , but it's definitely something that has come up now with this book. It came up with Horace. I think that's something we're going to continue to encounter. , and it does give me pause and I'm still trying to figure out exactly where I fall.

[01:01:19] Amanda: I don't know that I know. 

[01:01:20] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[01:01:21] Amanda: And I don't think I will 

[01:01:23] Kelsey: have like a clear black or white answer. No, I don't. I don't. 

Yeah. 

[01:01:27] Kelsey: Because it's not a black and white issue. Every, yeah. Every situation is different. Right. And, , there, it's just hard to say because also indigenous culture, like we have like specific protocols when it comes to like, Things like this where you want to make sure you're working in community When you when you do a project like this, and I don't know like what she what she did Right and also just because you get the approval of some doesn't mean you're gonna have the approval of all and that's never gonna be the [01:02:00] case and The DNA or Navajo people like they can't all just be like, yeah, we approve.

[01:02:06] Kelsey: Yeah. Right. And so it's never, it's never going to be like that. And so, , and also like these things can be very political, like maybe the people who wrote that letter don't get along with the, her married into family. Like it's very, it's very complicated, but I, I. I just do want to respect that. Yeah. That, that is like a valid opinion.

[01:02:29] Kelsey: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. people have the right to their stories and if they didn't feel it was representative, then I just wanted to make sure we put that in the space. Mm-Hmm. . And that we talk about it. Yeah. , because yeah, it is, it's important and yeah, to hear those voices 

[01:02:44] Amanda: it is. And I do appreciate, like, I, I do appreciate that she is.

[01:02:49] Amanda: an indigenous woman. I think I would take more issue with this book if it was someone fully outside of that community. Yeah. Right. 

[01:02:55] Amanda: , 

[01:02:55] Amanda: if they were like white or Korean or, or whatever, right. I think I would take [01:03:00] more issues. So I do appreciate that because, , you know, the indigenous community, especially in the States is not massive.

[01:03:06] Amanda: And so I think any time that we have someone, who identifies more broadly within like, cause indigenous is such an umbrella term, right. , Can can bring to light these stories, especially if it's done in a way that's intentional and respectful. And like you said, in a community, I'm all for it.

[01:03:19] Amanda: , and again, I don't know all the details. I hope that it was done in community. , I know that she has a personal connection, obviously to the Navajo nation. , but yeah, it's definitely something to, to think about. And I think for me, the one question that always comes to mind is like, why did you choose to write this book?

[01:03:33] Amanda: I want to know what the author's intention was. Yeah. , cause I think that says a lot about.

[01:03:37] Kelsey: Everything. Yeah. And so kind of to piggyback on that, , there is a sequel, 

but 

[01:03:43] Kelsey: there was always meant to be a third book and that is in hiatus. And she says that she has no plans of writing it, but has the book, like, has the book fully formed.

[01:03:57] Kelsey: , but I'm, I'm curious if it was because of [01:04:00] this controversy that it, that people are no longer backing it or publishers can no longer back it because, because of it. , so. Yeah. The second book, while good, it is a cliffhanger and you don't get to know the ending. Oh no! Maybe I 

[01:04:16] Amanda: don't want to read it now because I'm just going to feel 

so like, 

[01:04:18] Amanda: I don't know, unresolved.

Yeah. It's , 

[01:04:21] Kelsey: yeah. I thought I was, when I first read it, I thought it was definitely coming out. And so now it's at a point where it's like at a standstill. , and I don't know if it ever will be written and maybe it shouldn't be. Yeah. 

[01:04:33] Amanda: Yeah. 

[01:04:34] Kelsey: I don't know. I mean, 

[01:04:35] Amanda: , as we transition to our literally the best, literally the worst, it definitely, that came up obviously.

[01:04:41] Amanda: Cause I, even though I liked it, like I still got the one star reviews just to balance out our conversation and get folks who did not agree with Kelsey and I, , and had different opinions on it. Like, and that is something that came up. , so yeah, let's, let's look at some of these Goodreads reviews. I know this is a longer episode for sure.

[01:04:56] Amanda: So we can start to wrap things up. But yeah, lots of good things to say, lots of good things [01:05:00] to say. , so maybe, I don't know how many you have, but maybe if we just do like, maybe just like two each, maybe or three each. Well, I think, well, right. We go over 

[01:05:08] Kelsey: our final recommendation first, right? Yes. Yes. I always forget to do that.

[01:05:13] Amanda: , so yeah. Why don't you start first then Kelsey? 

[01:05:16] Kelsey: Yeah, I, , would, especially for those. Seeking like a different kind of book where it's not just going to be like a straightforward, fantasy that we've seen, , pretty much from the past to like present. , it's going to be, , something that kind of opens your mind a little more.

[01:05:35] Kelsey: And while I would ask you not to, , , overgeneralize about like indigenous culture, , while you're reading it, it is one perspective. Like we talk about, , it is one perspective and it's from a woman who's writing about a different culture that is not her own. , keeping that in mind, it is one perspective and doesn't represent the Diné or Navajo people as a whole.

[01:05:58] Kelsey: Like I would a hundred percent [01:06:00] recommend this book, , to folks. Yeah. 

[01:06:02] Amanda: Great. Yeah. I mean, I would say pretty much the exact same thing. I enjoyed it. I would say for the folks who are coming at it from like a non fantasy backgrounds, which is myself, it's very accessible. It's not one of those fantasy books where you're going to like feel like you're in over your head right from the start.

[01:06:16] Amanda: I know I've said this a million times, but there isn't, you're not going to open the book and see like, you know, 10 pages of maps and like 15 more pages of characters. And there's not going to be a lot of terminology thrown at you. So it's very accessible. It's very accessible. If fantasy is not your thing, , and so, yeah, I would recommend it.

[01:06:30] Amanda: I would recommend it to both adults and young adults alike. I think it, it, , I don't know, kind of bridges that, that age gap really well. I think both adults and teenagers would enjoy this book. , it's fast paced. , I, , I think I, yeah, I read this in a couple days. . , and I feel like, yeah, like I said, I feel like I learned a bit more about indigenous culture along the way to Kelsey's point.

[01:06:49] Amanda: It is just one representation. , it can start you on a journey of learning more, but yeah. I enjoyed this book and now I'm a little torn about whether I want to read the sequel, but [01:07:00] 

it is still the plan. I feel like it's still worth it. It's still 

[01:07:03] Amanda: worth it. Yeah. Okay. So, , why don't you begin? 

[01:07:07] Amanda: All right. So let me start with my first one.

[01:07:10] Amanda: This is from Allie and, and again, this is the literally the worst. So these are Okay. 

[01:07:15] Kelsey: Yeah. 

[01:07:16] Amanda: Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. That sucked. So much. Reading this book was a bit like starting at the top of a ladder and falling down, banging my head on every fucking rung until I hit the bottom. And each rung has a stupid popular and unsubverted cliche written on it.

[01:07:32] Amanda: The only thing this book has going for it is the Navajo elements. Honest to God, if it weren't for these, it probably would not sell as anything more than your average shitty new adult paranormal book. Maggie is such a boring character. Oh, look, a bad ass woman who kills things with no remorse and has a tragic backstory.

[01:07:49] Amanda: Boo hoo. It's not like we can even grace this trope with its tropey character arc where she gets better or has a revelation. Nope. She's like the same person at the end of the story, except with more [01:08:00] trauma. How original. I would definitely disagree with that. I thought it was really entertaining. , I like the way she wrote it, but yeah, I totally obviously disagree with that.

[01:08:15] Kelsey: Okay. This one is a five star from the book smugglers from Goodreads. , love this. Can't wait for the sequel. Give me more Kai and Mags. Sorry, Maggie. 

Oh, that's right. Cause she doesn't like to be called that. 

[01:08:29] Amanda: He's like trying to get a nickname. Okay. , let's see, which one do I, I'll do this one next. Okay.

[01:08:35] Amanda: So this is from, , this is from Alexis. I did like this book. I ate it up, finished it in less than 24 hours. Why? Because I wanted to see this world get built out. I loved the idea of a big water catastrophe that decimated the world. And we've got broken up United States and the DNA are their own power in this world.

[01:08:54] Amanda: I love this idea. The book didn't deliver. I eagerly devoured this book looking [01:09:00] for any tidbits on when the big water took place. Teeny drops of information, even in passing. Spoiler alert, not really, just read other reviews. The world building doesn't happen. I actually will agree with Alexis on this. I was super, because again, I love post apocalyptic dystopian things.

[01:09:16] Amanda: I was hoping to see more of that. I've heard that, that they go out into the world in the second book and you get to experience more of like what, what's going on. The big water has done. , but it didn't, yeah, it does. It didn't happen in this book. They stay on Navajo, which makes sense. Cause that's where the book is.

[01:09:31] Amanda: But I was curious about what happened. So I agree a little bit with Alexis there. 

[01:09:36] Kelsey: Yeah. And with fantasy, when there's a series like world building happens in increments. Right? Like it doesn't all just get thrown at you at once because that would be awful storytelling. But every, yeah, every fantasy series like has a different like flow to it, but I do like it when it's like spaced out more rather than just like all at once.

[01:09:57] Kelsey: Cause then it can be boring [01:10:00] 

[01:10:00] Amanda: for people like me who don't like serious. We'll just give it to us all at once. 

[01:10:04] Kelsey: All right. This one, again, a five, five star read.

[01:10:07] Kelsey: Lauren Stuhlfeier, Trail of Lightning, The Sixth World, number one, by Rebecca Roanhorse was absolutely amazing. Why did I put it off for so long? It's easily taken its place as a favorite read of 2019. I love getting to know, , All of Roanhorse's complex characters. Maggie is hands down.

[01:10:24] Kelsey: One of my favorite leads without question. I have to appreciate her honesty, smarts, and her special set of skills. As fantastic as all of the characters are, the world building is stunningly fret refreshing. I just wish I was more familiar with Navajo language, pronunciation, culture, and traditions. This is the first.

[01:10:43] Kelsey: Navajo post apocalyptic urban fantasy that I've ever read. And I have to say that I need more. I'm dying for book two, Storm of Locust. I could go on on about this, but just do yourself a favor and jump right in. 

[01:10:58] Amanda: Oh, yeah. I love that. And yeah, the [01:11:00] book is like so full of like the Navajo language and Navajo culture, and I loved it.

[01:11:04] Amanda: I was frustrated because when I can't pronounce a word, it takes me out of the story. I'm like, ugh. Yeah, yeah. But I also appreciated it very much. All right. My last one, this is from Sandy. I don't know what to think of this book. As a Navajo reader, I'm glad to see familiar places and people, but I need to process my feelings about this book.

[01:11:22] Amanda: There are things in here that made me feel uncomfortable. , which, yeah, I wanted to include because again, we want to include multiple perspectives, , on this podcast and I was happy to find one that was a review written by. , a Navajo individual. And I would love to like sit down with Sandy and like have a conversation and like learn 

more 

[01:11:42] Amanda: because I am sure, yeah, there's a lot there to unpack.

[01:11:44] Amanda: And again, she is situated. I'm assuming I shouldn't gender this person. I'm sure they're situated very differently, right. To this book than we are. , yeah, that's my last one. 

[01:11:53] Kelsey: Oh, there's not more. 

[01:11:55] Amanda: Oh, no, that was it. That was it. 

[01:11:56] Kelsey: Dang it, I thought you were like getting into more. I was like, yeah, I want [01:12:00] to hear more.

[01:12:00] Kelsey: I 

[01:12:00] Amanda: want to sit down with him because like that was it. I was like, wait, but wait. 

Oh, yeah. Darn it. Okay. You let us down, Sandy. Woo. 

[01:12:12] Kelsey: Darn. , okay this five star read is from Alison, , from Goodreads. I got this book from author, , through a giveaway and I'm so excited.

[01:12:22] Kelsey: I wanted to sit down and read this one in. One sitting, but life kept getting in the way. This just meant I got to savor every moment of the journey. A lot of people are describing this as a Mad Max Fury Road esque book, and I definitely agree, but it made me think that this is where the Western genre should be going.

[01:12:41] Kelsey: Righteous women, traveling the land, striking out against those who would mean to do harm. I think the ultimate description is a Navajo Buffy, the vampire slayer goes on a Mad Max Fury Road type journey for redemption, meeting a few familiar characters along the way. This [01:13:00] book is wholly a Navajo book in every little moment, and it gave such an incredible depth to the story that took it to the next level.

[01:13:09] Kelsey: Okay. 

[01:13:11] Amanda: Yeah. I love the comparisons to Mad Max and Buffy. Buffy for sure. Another whole Buffy. Monster Slayer. Yeah. Oh, that's great. I don't know. I mean, I kind of see the Mad Max bit a little, I guess. They are kind of out in this, like, like, not a wasteland, but like driving between these kind of. Some of the towns are a little burnt out and just like, yeah, it's wild, wild west out there for sure.

[01:13:36] Amanda: It's like every man and woman for themselves. , all right. Wow. Well, we made it to the end. I really loved this discussion so much. , it's, it's so interesting how like, How different the tone of these conversations are when we're on the same page. , I, I appreciate both. I like when we're like arguing and I like when we're like, yeah, I like this.

[01:13:55] Kelsey: Cause I think too, like when we both like it, it allows us [01:14:00] to get into like the depths and like the intricacies of the writing and the characters and things like that. And so that's fun. 

[01:14:06] Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. So if you agree with us and think that this book is amazing, comment below. If you disagree and did not enjoy it, also comment below.

[01:14:14] Amanda: , if you're on Spotify and if you're not on Spotify and cannot comment below, please hop on our socials, hop on Instagram. , again, it's LitVibesOnly underscore podcast or TikTok LitVibesOnly podcast. And if you would like to watch video of this episode, you can also find it, , at YouTube at YouTube on YouTube.

[01:14:30] Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. At YouTube only podcast. , that is all for us today. 

[01:14:40] Kelsey: So much for joining us. Thank you all. We'll see you next Monday. See you next Monday.