Ep. 7: Lit It or Quit It: Horse

Join Kelsey and Amanda as they delve into 'Horse' by Geraldine Brooks. They discuss its portrayal of a legendary racehorse through intertwining historical and contemporary timelines. The episode highlights strong opinions on the book's depiction of race, its blend of historical research, and its impact on both of them.

Follow us on TikTok & Youtube @litvibesonlypodcast and on Instagram @litvibesonly_podcast. We'd love to hear from you!

See you on Mondays!

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Community Values
• 2:25 Chit Chat and Updates
• 7:58 Current Reads: My Year of Rest and Relaxation
• 10:09 Current Reads: Glow of the Ever Flame
• 12:46 Book Discussion
• 21:00 Meet the Hosts: Kelsey and Amanda
• 29:00 Socials and Stickers
• 58:57 Reader Reactions and Reviews
• 1:10:40 Final Thoughts and Socials

Transcript

Ep 7: Lit It or Quit It: Horse
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[00:00:00] A quick note before we begin. While Kelsey and Amanda enjoy debating for your entertainment, we want our listeners to know that Lit Vibes Only is an inclusive community that honors all tastes and respects all readers. Enjoy this episode! 

[00:00:21] Kelsey: Welcome to Lit Vibes Only, where we lit the shit out of books we love and hate. My name's Kelsey. And I'm Amanda. We want to be sure that you're following us on all of our socials. We have YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok. And YouTube and TikTok are our Lit vibes only podcast. And on Tik TOK, we are lit vibes only underscore podcast.

[00:00:46] Kelsey: It's only taken me like, Oh my God, seriously. Dang it. And I was just going to say, and it's taken me about six episodes to get that right. So we're still working on. Apparently. [00:01:00] Oh my gosh. Okay. , so yeah, so we're on Instagram at live vibes only underscore podcast. My apologies. 

[00:01:09] Amanda: You got it. Okay. 

[00:01:11] Kelsey: Amanda. 

[00:01:12] Amanda: Oh, sorry.

[00:01:13] Amanda: That's me. That's me. Oh, my gosh. So, , I wanted to also invite folks who have yet to rate and review our podcast on either Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast to please do so. , We are sending out stickers, free lit vibes, only stickers. It's got our cute little logo. I actually have one.

[00:01:33] Kelsey: Yes. So 

[00:01:35] Amanda: this is what it looks like. It's our logo. It's very cute. I love it. You can slap that on your, you can slap that on your water bottle, on your laptop, on your car. And tell other folks to listen in and review us now. But the process in order to do that. Leave us a review, and then you're gonna wanna screenshot that, send it to us on our socials, so Instagram or TikTok.

Mm-Hmm. . 

[00:01:59] Amanda: Or you can [00:02:00] email it to us at Lit vibes only podcast@gmail.com. Make sure to include your address and then we will get that to you asap. . And then be sure once you get your stickers, be sure to take a photo of wherever you end up sticking it and like tag us so we can add it to our socials.

[00:02:16] Amanda: We'd love to see where folks are putting their stickers and getting more folks excited to get their own. Please. And thank you. All right. So we're going to do something different at the top of this episode. We've been doing our jobs, our job of the day, and, , we love it. We love our job of the day, but, , we also want to keep things fresh for you guys and also try out different things, right?

[00:02:39] Amanda: This is a new podcast. So we want to see what works. What resonates with our listeners and what is not. So instead of our doing our job of the day, we're just going to like chit chat for a bit, do a little bit of, of catching up.

[00:02:55] Amanda: So awkward. Give you guys a little [00:03:00] peek into, you know, our lives, our thoughts outside of just talking about books. And if this is your vibe, Then let us know and we'll continue. And if you're like, no, please go back to your jobs. This is so weird and awkward. We could also do that too. So you just 

[00:03:14] Kelsey: liked the jobs 

[00:03:15] Amanda: Yeah.

[00:03:19] Kelsey: And as you can tell, or maybe you can't, I don't know. , I'm actually under the weather today. I've had this cold that has been trying to persist for the last like three days. It started on Friday where I had a sore throat and I was like, dear God, please do not be COVID again. I just had it in August. So I like, I was like, I can't imagine that it's COVID.

[00:03:41] Kelsey: , and. Then the, the sore throat persisted for like two days, and then I was like, okay, I'm feeling okay though, like, not bad, and then this morning it's like more, no sore throat, but like, sneezing and snot filled nose. So yeah, there. Yeah, you sound congested for sure. 

[00:03:59] Amanda: [00:04:00] It could be just like a cold that's like migrating, I don't know, the cold, like it's just like moving from your throat to your like sinus.

[00:04:07] Kelsey: Yeah. That's what I mean. Yeah. 

[00:04:10] Amanda: Yeah. I mean, it is that season. I literally, our school is getting ready to do, which actually I really appreciate this. They will do like a vaccine and like booster clinic on campus specifically for teachers. And so we don't have to like go out and do it on our own. And so I've like already signed up for my flu and COVID shot at the beginning of October to like.

[00:04:31] Amanda: Get that done and dusted. 'cause next season is the season. 

[00:04:35] Kelsey: My district does the same where, , but it's later in the season. Mm-Hmm. So I think I'm gonna get mine before, , they don't, I think they don't recommend like, getting your vaccine for like three months after you've like, had it at least Oh.

[00:04:49] Kelsey: Something. I don't know. I could be totally wrong and shame like , but, so I'm not gonna get the Covid vaccine right away, but I'll get , 'cause I also. [00:05:00] Got the COVID vaccine right before I went on my honeymoon, which was in July, like end of June. So I'm not due for another one for like another. 

[00:05:08] Amanda: Oh yeah. The next summer 

[00:05:09] Kelsey: or something.

[00:05:10] Kelsey: Yeah. And I got it. And so hopefully that's enough immunity, but I will get that flu shot. 

[00:05:16] Amanda: Well, we shall see. I mean, I have had COVID three, maybe four times and yeah, I've done all the shots. And so part of me is like. Is this even doing anything? Like, am I just going through the motions just because this is what you do?

[00:05:28] Amanda: Yeah. Because clearly my body loves COVID and whenever it's around, it's like, Hey friends. I remember 

[00:05:34] Kelsey: like, and you're like, I have COVID again. 

[00:05:38] Amanda: I feel so bad. And there's already folks, there's already like folks at my school, teachers specifically who, who've gotten it already. Yeah. , oh God, here we go.

[00:05:46] Amanda: Students, teachers, All staff, 

[00:05:48] Kelsey: like there's a bunch of people who've gotten COVID and it's like been three weeks at school. It's not surprising, but yeah, yeah. So if you didn't know, Oh, go ahead. No, go for it. I was, [00:06:00] I was just going to say, if you all don't know, like we record these episodes in advance. And so, , like our timeline, we're talking about.

[00:06:09] Kelsey: What's going on in our life? Like almost a month in advance of the release of these episodes. So if you're like, wait, what are they talking about? Three weeks in October, actually. Yeah, I know. , yeah, that just helps us. Not feel like we are falling behind or feel like we're going crazy. Like trying to make sure we have our episodes ready.

[00:06:31] Kelsey: , and also like a reading podcast, like that takes time to read books. And, , I never want to feel like super pressure to like finish a book. , When, if I'm enjoying it, or if, you know, like I'm trying to take notes on something, , I don't want to feel super pressured. 

[00:06:47] Amanda: Right. Or you're like gritting your teeth and trying to get through something that I'm making.

[00:06:51] Amanda: Yes. I think also too, like we are not full time podcasters. Like we have full time jobs and we just don't have full ass jobs. Yeah. [00:07:00] We don't have the flexibility or ability in general to be like doing this every single week. So that's our way of like making sure we can get you guys episodes every Monday.

[00:07:10] Amanda: Yeah. Without like stressing ourselves out totally. Knowing that we would like have to be doing this every single week. So yeah, if there seemed to be some like time discrepancies, sometimes we're like, wait, why are they talking about things that literally happened last month? , it's because. They did happen last month and we're just dropping these episodes later.

[00:07:26] Amanda: Yeah. And we're 

[00:07:27] Kelsey: trying to figure out that timeline of like when to release stuff on, on, , our socials and like when to release stuff like on the episode. So yeah, we're, we're figuring it out. And if it seems confusing at first, it's probably because we're confused as well. 

[00:07:41] Amanda: It's a lot to keep track of, but, , we're, we're figuring it out.

[00:07:44] Amanda: And if there are folks who have tips who might be other podcasters, like this is how we set up our schedule, by all means. We would totally love to hear about that. Yeah, we're here to like learn and grow and figure this out. , but yeah. What are you reading right 

[00:07:57] Kelsey: now, Amanda? 

[00:07:58] Amanda: I am still finishing [00:08:00] up , my year of rest and relaxation.

[00:08:02] Amanda: I'm like two thirds of the way through. , it is exactly what I expected it to be like based on what people told me about the book who had read it. So, , it's like meeting my expectations. If that makes sense, like not, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is a great book. But I'm like, Oh, this is exactly what I expected it to be.

[00:08:24] Amanda: And therefore I am not like overly displeased. , is it a book that I would recommend at this point? I probably say no. , I, but again, I put like the endings. And so maybe once I get to the end of the book, I'll have a, a different opinion. , it is, it is a very like introspective book. , because it is about this young woman who is taking a year to essentially.

[00:08:53] Amanda: Hibernate using a cocktail of drugs. So she's just like sleeping her life away. Yeah. And so [00:09:00] because of that, there's not a ton happening plot wise. Like there's a lot of reflecting on previous events that kind of led her to this point, but she's not doing a whole lot over the course of the book. 

So 

[00:09:11] Amanda: it is a pretty reflective, introspective text novel.

[00:09:15] Amanda: And so I could see that not landing well with some people. And I have been a little, Not as engaged, but yeah, it is a it also it's a shorter book too. So it's a fairly quick read So that's that's what I'm currently still working my way through 

[00:09:31] Kelsey: I don't mind books that are just like that lean one way or the other like that our character heavy maybe or like Lot heavy.

[00:09:40] Kelsey: Yeah, I could get into both. It's just a pass name. Yeah, 

[00:09:43] Amanda: I can as well I just I don't know that I find her , a compelling enough character to be, like, super jazzed about the book. Like, I don't hate it. I would say, as you say, it's a very mid book. , it's very mid. It's, I don't love it or hate it. It's, it is what it is.

[00:09:58] Amanda: But I am the same. I, [00:10:00] as long as it has one, Or the other of those elements, or perhaps bush that I'm like, yeah, that's strong. And I'm like, I'm sold. I'm good. Yeah. What are you, are you still reading the, what is it? The glow of the ember fire or something? 

[00:10:12] Kelsey: Glow of the other flame. , yes, I am. I'm so excited about this one.

[00:10:17] Kelsey: I, I'm loving it. I'm also like, it's so funny because We are such different readers and, , it's, I've started kind of reading with you in mind and knowing every element that you would hate because I was like, Oh man, Amanda would like poke, poke at that and be like, and I'm like, I don't care because like, I don't, it's just, I don't have an explanation for my taste.

[00:10:48] Kelsey: It's just what it is. And I, , I feel like, yeah, there's just, I don't know. I don't know. I just, I'm loving it. And it's mostly about this like really strong [00:11:00] female character who has a lot of rage and , yeah, it's quite interesting, but she's, , you know, a magical being and didn't know it her whole life until she was, , in her twenties.

[00:11:11] Kelsey: And so, , yeah, it's fun to me. , And there is like a dash of romance in the first book, in the first novel, it's, it's not as prevalent. , it's kind of like the undertones of it. And then here, , I definitely feel it like moving more towards like a romance, , which I love, but, , I also love that there was so much character development and like just so much backstory of like who she is and like why she's making the decisions she's making, even though at times it's annoying to me.

[00:11:37] Kelsey: It's, , It makes sense for her character, you know, and I like it when books do that. 

[00:11:43] Amanda: Okay, so she's being annoying, but in a way that tracks with who she is. So you're not mad about that. 

[00:11:46] Kelsey: Yes, that tracks with who she is. Okay. 

[00:11:48] Amanda: All right, I'll take that. And 

[00:11:49] Kelsey: on a future episode, we're going to be talking about, , like romance tropes, and we'll kind of get into some of that.

[00:11:56] Amanda: I'm so excited to learn. And also, No, [00:12:00] you know what? I am excited to learn because I do enjoy learning. I'm a naturally curious person and I am, I am actually, folks are going to be surprised to hear this, but I am actually hopeful that I will encounter a Kelsey book that I'm like, Oh, this was like surprisingly good.

[00:12:17] Amanda: And I found A book that I didn't think I would like to be quite enjoyable like I'm waiting for that moment has not happened. Yes. I cannot wait. But I know it's gonna happen. It's why we're doing this podcast. Eventually. And I am excited for that moment. Like I'm excited to be 

[00:12:35] Kelsey: proved wrong, 

[00:12:36] Amanda: proven 

[00:12:36] Kelsey: wrong.

[00:12:36] Kelsey: And I think as we learn more about each other, we're gonna know like Oh, okay. I think this is going to be the book. 

[00:12:43] Amanda: Okay. So that's actually a perfect little segue. I'm going to jump on this because that's a perfect segue into this episode because, , we're doing, you know, obviously our literature acquitted episode, and this is a book that I chose for Kelsey.

[00:12:55] Amanda: And I do want to, before we get into like the discussion, I did want to take a [00:13:00] moment and explain why I chose this book for Kelsey, because I did think that this would be a good. entry point into historical fiction for Kelsey. So the book that we're discussing today is Horse by Geraldine Brooks.

[00:13:13] Amanda: Geraldine Brooks is one of my favorite historical fiction authors. I'm so surprised. So I wanted to introduce her to someone who I really enjoy. I read Year of Wonders by her years ago. And that was my introduction to Geraldine Brooks. And also it wasn't my introduction to historical fiction, but it was a book that I read as an adult, like adult historical fiction.

[00:13:34] Amanda: And I was like, Oh my gosh, yes, I do really love this genre. And here's why. , so I chose Horse. For Kelsey, because yes, it's a well known historical fiction author who I love, but also this book, for those of you who read along with us, it doesn't take place solely in the past. There are multiple storylines and one of them takes place, you know, in present day.

[00:13:55] Amanda: So I figured since Kelsey doesn't like historical fiction, if I gave her a book that wasn't fully [00:14:00] set in the past and did have some, have a contemporary storyline that would help to Her to engage with the story a bit more, perhaps. , so that was like my thinking. And I also, this is Geraldine Brooks, most recent novel.

[00:14:14] Amanda: And so I also wanted her to read something that was current, , that other folks might've heard of as well. And so that's again, really relevant to what's going on. And. And it does talk there a bit about race and as women of color, that's something that directly impacts us. So I thought she also might enjoy, , a book that dives into that particular topic and explores it.

[00:14:36] Amanda: So those were the reasons why I chose it in the hope that maybe I would get like two thumbs up from Kelsey. And I can already tell from the text she sent me and the faces she's making and the loud size that are currently happening that she did not. So this will be, I'm sure a very interesting episode.

[00:14:52] Amanda: , yeah. So let's do it. Let's do the thing. So, , short, short answer, short response. , Kelsey lit it or [00:15:00] quit it. 

[00:15:00] Kelsey: No thought at all. Quit it.

[00:15:03] Amanda: Okay. Just, okay. All right. Great. All right. Thank you. 

[00:15:06] Kelsey: Let's get into it. 

[00:15:08] Amanda: Let's get into it. Well, you're going to start, you're going to summarize this 

[00:15:12] Kelsey: multiple storyline.

[00:15:14] Kelsey: Okay. So Godspeed. We're fucking real. Like I was trying to write down this summary and then just got lost in my own writing. And, , so I'm going to try to do this. , and Amanda was already scolding me for not knowing one of the character names. What was her name again? Martha Jackson. She has her own storyline.

[00:15:39] Kelsey: So she's important. She's like a sliver of the story. Okay. So here we go. So I'm going to read from some of my summary, but also I have to add because it's missing quite a bit. The other thing that I want to say too, I will be mentioning, , , sexual assault .

[00:15:57] Kelsey: And so I just want people to be like clear of that. [00:16:00] It kind of comes out of nowhere, in the book. And , so I just want people to know that it's coming. Okay. So, , this book is about a horse named Darley slash Lexington, who is a famous race horse, , back in the 18 fifties. , the book follows his life throughout the time he was alive in the 18 fifties to, , then it goes to 1954 where it follows one of the horses paintings and all the way to present 2019 to where his school is being studied.

[00:16:29] Kelsey: , and Jarrett. Is a character from the 1850s, 1860s is a main character whose entire life revolves around taking care of the horse. He is sold along with, cause he is enslaved . He is sold along with the horse several times throughout the book and mostly. His life is not filled with a lot of hate or beatings.

[00:16:51] Kelsey: , he has like quite, , what is perceived as like a more pleasant, , enslaved life. , and he's allowed to take care of the horse and helps the [00:17:00] horse become a star racer. , eventually we, we find out Lexington went blind or, , goes blind and was retired from racing after he is like, You know, peak race where he won against another top performer.

[00:17:14] Kelsey: Jarrett still got to follow him as his caretaker, even after he was, , retired from racing and Lexington later was bred until the end of his days. , he ended up having a ridiculous amount of calves and many, or do they say sires, I can't remember he sired many baby horses and many of them went on To be race horses themselves.

[00:17:39] Kelsey: And in the 1860s, the civil war had started and Jared and Lexington were in Kentucky on the breeding farm and their farm was raided by Confederate folks. I don't think they were soldiers. , but they were just like for the Confederacy and they steal all the horses. That they had at the time of the farm and Jarrett becomes the savior in this moment and [00:18:00] helps get the horses back and kills two men.

[00:18:02] Kelsey: , a woman is randomly raped and that is kind of glossed over, , but thrown in as well. So that's where my summary started stopped. I mean, And then he goes on to bring all of these horses to safety in the north and eventually Jarrett ends up living his life in Canada where he finds love.

[00:18:25] Kelsey: , and. lives out the end of his days. Now, there are two other storylines that I mentioned earlier one from 1954 where, Martha, you said? Martha is, , someone who's looking into, , a horse painting. I think, , one of her maids, has the horse painting and wants to sell it. It, it doesn't matter that much. And then, , in 2019, there's Jess and Theo, which they do matter more.

[00:18:52] Kelsey: , and part of the biggest reason why I hated this book. , and Theo is a black man who was raised [00:19:00] in England and has an English accent. , a poor English accent in the audio book. And, he is. This graduate student who is trying to figure out his dissertation and it's centered around how, , enslaved people are, interpreted in paintings, , from white painters, , and from the, from the perspective of white painters.

[00:19:23] Kelsey: And he goes on to meet this woman, Jess, and their first meeting is her racially profiling him and, , accusing him of stealing her own bike. And then they end up blossoming into a relationship somehow from there. And, Theo has issues with Jess, but still like is. Attracted to her in some way, and they, , end up having, you know, a relationship, like I said.

[00:19:48] Kelsey: And so then Jess is this ignorant white woman who, , is often racist or discriminatory against, , black folks in the, , in the novel and [00:20:00] comes off as really just ignorant. These issues. And she, I don't know her, , job title, but she does work at the Smithsonian and she cleans bones, whatever that job.

[00:20:11] Kelsey: She's audiologist. Thank you. She cleans bones and , has, well she does more than just clean them, but , she has whatever, whatever. And, , she. Comes across Lexington's skull, which is how that all connects back to 

[00:20:27] Amanda: Lexington's skull. Isn't it 

[00:20:29] Kelsey: just the skull? 

[00:20:30] Amanda: No, it's his whole skeleton. Really? Yeah. They just talk about the skull, though.

[00:20:35] Amanda: That's the most important part, but it's his whole skeleton's up there, yeah. 

[00:20:40] Kelsey: So, then, eventually, Theo, Is right there in DC, Theo and Jess, and he's running, , goes on a run at night. And then, he ends up seeing this woman, this white woman who had fallen onto rocks and is trying to help her, , up and the police come out and they end [00:21:00] up shooting him because they think that he is attacking this white woman.

[00:21:03] Kelsey: And, , then the rest of the book is about how Jess feels so affected by her loss. Of this man and, the portrayal of this white woman, , being so traumatized by all of this. And then, Jess has a conversation with one of Theo's friends that actually blames Theo for his own death.

[00:21:25] Kelsey: And, , that was part of the reason why I hated this book. But then in the end, Jess goes back to Australia where she's from. And, , pretty much it ends. Thank you very much. 

[00:21:37] Amanda: , yeah, so for those of you who might have been a bit like what's happening, it's a longer bug. It's not super long, but it's a longer bug.

[00:21:43] Amanda: It is long. It does have multiple, it's only like 400 pages. So for someone 800, 

[00:21:48] Kelsey: 14 hours, I don't understand how it got translated in 14 fucking hours, but it was 14 hours. That's maybe, maybe they spoke really slowly and. They were struggling with their 

[00:21:57] Amanda: accents. So they are racist. [00:22:00] It's actually not a long book.

[00:22:01] Amanda: I think it's like 400 pages or so. And, , but it does have multiple storylines. And so it can be a bit tricky keeping the storyline straight and all the character names straight. So thank you. Kelsey for attempting to do that. , I think, I think a couple of little filler things is the Martha Jackson storyline, which is a smaller storyline.

[00:22:22] Amanda: She's an art dealer. And I think that's important because, , one of the central parts of this story. And the reason why Jess and Theo end up together is because of this painting that he finds. And so painting and art is a pretty essential part of the plot and connects the storylines. So that is an important thing to know.

[00:22:45] Amanda: And it is how Jess and Theo end up working together because he has this painting of this horse. Which he's trying to like. Identify the horse in it and, and the individual in it, the, , enslaved black person in it. And she's, you know, working with the skull and [00:23:00] skeleton of that particular horse. 

[00:23:01] Amanda: So before we get into, , the discussion, , or I guess to kick off the discussion as always, was there anything that you did actually enjoy about this book or find less? Bad. 

[00:23:14] Kelsey: Yes. , I, I did enjoy the back and forth between, , timelines and I always enjoy multiple POVs. I like that aspect. I think. Why? It just makes more interesting storytelling, I think. Okay. 

[00:23:29] Amanda: That's fair. All right. Well, then, , it, it sounds like you have strong feelings about the book, so I'm going to give you free reign to start to kind of dive in.

[00:23:39] Amanda: I know I'm going to regret this later, but kind of dive in wherever you 

[00:23:44] Kelsey: would like. I kind of have many points that I want to make, but I first want to ask you a couple questions because I am fairly new to historical fiction and I kind of want to understand, What makes a book historical fiction? Do [00:24:00] the authors always have to do extensive amounts of research?

[00:24:05] Kelsey: Do like, how much is real? How much is made up? Like, is there a line there or is it kind of all over the place with this genre? 

[00:24:15] Amanda: That's a great question. I mean, I am by no means a historical fiction expert. I would say that a lot of the historical fiction authors that I read tend to try and base their stories around a particular historical event or a historical character.

[00:24:30] Amanda: They can take kind of as much creative license as they'd like, and they do that to varying degrees. But I do think they usually try to anchor it in something. Specific. , those that don't will just choose like a general time period. Like, Oh, I want to tell a story that takes place in 1830s Spain, and it might not be connected to a particular event, person, et cetera.

[00:24:55] Amanda: But I feel like a lot of historical authors tend to do that. They tend to anchor them right. And an [00:25:00] actual event or again, connected to something that actually happened to, for this book, there really was. this amazing, you know, third bread race horse. And there were a lot of enslaved, , black men who served as jockeys and caretakers for these particular horses as well.

[00:25:17] Amanda: So that's, that would, I guess, fit into that category. , I already forgot what the other part of your question was. Just like, is there a line of how much is real 

[00:25:27] Kelsey: and how much isn't? 

[00:25:29] Amanda: I don't, well, so I don't know that there's like a criteria where it's like, Oh, this book is like 20 percent actual history.

[00:25:35] Amanda: The rest is made up. And therefore it is, or it's not historical fiction. I don't think it's that specific or nitty gritty. , at least not to my understanding, I guess we could like find someone in the historical fiction world and ask them, but I think it really does. depend on the author. In terms of research though, one of the things that I do really love about Geraldine Brooks and some of my other favorite historical fiction authors is I find the story so [00:26:00] much more engaging and interesting and educational if they've taken the time to do their research.

[00:26:05] Amanda: I was having a discussion with a colleague a couple weeks ago about historical fiction and one of the things that I really despise about historical fiction is when an author, it feels like the author essentially took. 21st century characters and plop them in a different time period. So the way that they think, the way that they interact, all of those things are very much based in.

[00:26:27] Amanda: Our 21st century conceptions of the world and perspectives and, , behaviors, instead of it reflecting what people would actually think and believe and how they would respond if they were of that time period. 

And I 

[00:26:39] Amanda: feel like Geraldine Brooks, again, along with some other authors is a really great job of, you know, , trying her best to maintain that like historical accuracy as much as one can.

[00:26:49] Amanda: Right. We didn't grow up in that time. And so we have to rely on, you know, 

[00:26:52] Kelsey: still 

[00:26:53] Amanda: research primary documents. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know if that answers the question, but 

[00:26:58] Kelsey: it kind of gives me an idea, like an [00:27:00] understanding. , I guess my, one of my biggest like issues with this book, , is that, I don't feel she does the, , black characters justice in her portrayal of them, , as a white woman.

[00:27:15] Kelsey: I would imagine that's because she's a white woman, that it wasn't that to me, it fell flat. , it's just that Jarrett to me, he's like, he's like the main character. , he gets the most time I think out of the book and yet he's just portrayed as this person that like, , is only like a good guy and only like this nice guy.

[00:27:39] Kelsey: And also that really his only love is for this horse. And for this animal, , and his only, contact with this connection to this story, like overall arching story is that he is attached to this horse. And even like throughout the book, he denies [00:28:00] like freedom or opportunity for freedom because he cares so much about this horse. And I just don't know that that's like steeped in anything like of truth, you know, and at the end of the book, Geraldine, like kind of tells you some of the facts of that she came across and Jarrett, she said there was like very little information about him. And so she got to take her artistic, license to create this character into what exactly what she wanted, not necessarily a portrayal that would give this person justice and that's my kind of beef with historical fiction is that like we don't necessarily know What is real and what's not.

[00:28:39] Kelsey: And, , I guess the thing is, you know, I'm glad that she said that at the end, that she really didn't know. And so now I know like all the details of Jarrett were really just her own creation. And I'm not sure that I feel like this white woman has the right to create this character of him. Cause he was a real person and [00:29:00] he, his story doesn't get to be told yet.

[00:29:03] Kelsey: She's the one that gets to tell it. I find. That problematic and it makes me and feel all of my fields. 

[00:29:12] Amanda: I mean, I have a couple of thoughts on that for one, I do agree with you. And this is not something that's new to the book conversation. When you have, especially white authors writing characters of color.

[00:29:24] Amanda: , you know, the first thing that pops into my head, of course, is like the book, the help, right. And kind of all of the controversy around this might, woman writing a story about black characters, , when she herself is not a black person. And I, I think, you know, that is a whole other conversation that we could have.

[00:29:40] Amanda: , but I, I agree with you, like there's definitely tension and controversy around who gets to tell what stories and why. , I also would say that one of the things with enslaved peoples is because You know, my ancestors were not considered. [00:30:00] humans and were considered property and were not allowed to read and write.

[00:30:05] Amanda: We weren't able to document our stories. And so there's so much of, , black history that has just been lost. And so because of that, Unlike in other historical fiction books where an author could go and find primary documents and find journals and find articles written about this person that would help them to craft a more authentic, , character portrayal.

[00:30:31] Amanda: , we don't have that luxury. And so in this situation, while it probably would have been better to have like a black author write this, , I can give her a little bit of leeway in her artistic license because the whole thing is that there is no record of this person, right? Because like that wasn't, that didn't happen.

[00:30:48] Amanda: It was not important. We were not a priority. And no one cared to include us right in this, in the story of this country and story of history. So she had to [00:31:00] essentially, did she have to tell this particular story? Of course not. Right. She could have written a completely different story. So I will say like, I will give her a little bit of leeway because she did have to have a bit of creative license because there are no primary documents.

[00:31:12] Amanda: That's not her fault. , the last thing that I will say, and that you're like, Oh, like he, he only comes across as just like this flat, good guy. And he's a kind of obsessed with this horse. I think to that point, one, he does have this relationship with May that I think is really meaningful. And we see him having, , this woman in his life that he cares about deeply and build this kind of a pseudo family with briefly in the story.

[00:31:35] Amanda: And also he does have this relationship with his father as well. The reason why though, he seems to not be. Connected to a lot of people is because again, enslaved people did not have the luxury of having strong connections. Your family members could be sold off or killed at any moment. And so I think it's also partially a defense mechanism about who you get close to and who you don't, because.

[00:31:59] Amanda: You didn't [00:32:00] have that stability of knowing that your family members or whoever was in your community was going to be around at any given moment for any length of time. And so to me, it made perfect sense that he connected and attached so strongly to this horse, because in some ways, like, Lexington was the one constant relationship in his life.

[00:32:19] Amanda: He was not allowed to stay with his father, right? That relationship was severed. I'm trying to remember what happened to his mom. I think his mom died early on. I think early on his mom died when she was 

[00:32:30] Kelsey: sold or something. 

[00:32:31] Amanda: Yeah. , with may, like she ended up going back with, you know, her original partner.

[00:32:36] Amanda: So I think for him, it made perfect sense that he would kind of sacrifice so much for this horse. And we all know that people in general tend to form really deep, intense relationships. A lot of people would like their pets and, and, and things like that. And people who are horse people. So that didn't, to me, that did not come across as flat or insincere [00:33:00] or like poor character building.

[00:33:01] Amanda: Like I, if anything, I was like, Oh, like this is, this is his anchor. Like Lexington is like the one being in his life that that he has just this deep, meaningful bond with. And I thought that was really beautiful. I don't know. 

[00:33:17] Kelsey: I guess I felt like she, , I see, like, I see your point. I totally get that. And, , also I just felt like his character was only a tool that she used throughout the book to tell her story rather than it's his story that's being told, you know?

[00:33:34] Kelsey: So like his attachment to the horse wasn't necessarily about him as a character. It was. About the horse, right? It was because her focus was the horse rather than the characters. , in my opinion, and I, or I was watching interviews with her too, because I was like, who the hell is this woman? And I wanted to know more about her.

[00:33:57] Kelsey: , and [00:34:00] she, Was saying like, I just was really interested in telling the story of this horse and that really was her basis And I felt like all the racism like thing like ideals or whatever We're kind of pieced together Into the book rather than it, that being like some of the, , content that's like core content.

[00:34:22] Kelsey: , so it felt more like these mashed up pieces together and that like, , yeah, just what I said. 

[00:34:29] Amanda: Yeah. Well, I, I don't think, I mean, I think she makes it very clear. I mean, the book is called Horace. I think she's very open and straight forward, like, yes, this book. Largely is about the horse, 

[00:34:40] Kelsey: but also like, I don't, I mean, that's why I don't like it.

[00:34:42] Amanda: Yeah. I mean, which is fair. That's totally fair. Like she was not disingenuous about the fact that like, it wasn't like she was like, I, I did write this book to focus solely on enslaved peoples and race and then race in modern times. If she had done that and then.

[00:34:55] Amanda: Been like, oh, the horse is secondary. Like, I would've been like, okay, clearly not. Mm-Hmm. . So I [00:35:00] think she was upfront with her intentions. , and so I, I can't be mad at her for that, but I can understand your point where, I mean, race is a huge issue, has been a huge issue. Mm-Hmm. You are talking about real people or people who are based on real people and their lives.

[00:35:17] Amanda: Mm-Hmm. and their struggles. And I think per, perhaps, yeah. You don't want that to feel minimized in service of. Telling the story of a horse. , so I, I get your point. I still think, however, I do think she did a good job of doing both. I think she did a good job of, of talking about this whole. industry, I guess.

[00:35:41] Amanda: I mean, I didn't know anything about, , the ways in which horse racing and horse ownership intertwined with enslaved peoples. I had no idea. And so I also liked this book because I like learning things and I felt like I learned a lot about that world. , and Yeah, I came away with, with new information, which I [00:36:00] always love.

[00:36:01] Amanda: So I think she balanced both. I didn't, I, and I love character development. You know that I love strong characters. I didn't feel like Jarrett was a two dimensional character. I, I felt like perhaps Theo and Jess were to some degree and for sure Martha, because like we, we get so little interaction with them, but I really loved her portrayal of Jarrett.

[00:36:19] Amanda: And I felt like really connected to him. I felt really, I empathize with him. , yeah. Yeah. So I guess we, yeah, we definitely have different perspectives, I guess on that. 

[00:36:29] Kelsey: Yeah. And I think that, you know, most of the way through I wasn't hating it. I was just like, okay, this is boring. This is about a horse.

[00:36:39] Kelsey: Okay. Whatever. And I was like, this is way too long. And then, , And then it was really just at the very end that I was like, what the fuck did she do? And, kind of getting to like Theo and Jess's, , storyline. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, that was the storyline that really pissed me off. And, , I had so many feelings about [00:37:00] it.

[00:37:00] Kelsey: Like I was like actually raging when I was texting you and you were like, yeah, but, , and I was like, what the. Fuck, what the fuck? I mean, you were going to have that response. I knew that was going to happen. And it ruined the entire book for me. , so basically, you know, I didn't understand why she was making Theo, , attracted to Jess while she was being so problematic.

[00:37:27] Kelsey: I just don't see that as realistic. , And because I, I've come into that as a person of color, right? I've come into that where, , I come across people, you know, I've been on dating sites and things, and I've come across people who are, who say things like Jess does, and I don't give two thoughts about it.

[00:37:46] Kelsey: Goodbye. So, The fact that he's like struggling with this, it doesn't make sense to me on a personal level because I and you know to some of my, you know, acquaintances like it. We talk [00:38:00] shit about people like that, because that's the way that we cope, right?

[00:38:02] Kelsey: We don't try to align ourselves with those people or make them better or try to enlighten them. , because they, you know, they're, they're harmful or the things that they believe in the things that they do are harmful to us. And so I couldn't understand 

Theo's 

[00:38:20] Kelsey: thought process in getting with Jess.

[00:38:23] Kelsey: And so that whole storyline in general just was annoying to me. And then at the very end when, , he is murdered, and then how Geraldine focuses in on Jess's character and how guilty and bad she feels about him being murdered and how traumatizing it is for her made absolute no sense to me and just felt.

[00:38:52] Kelsey: Like she was furthering. The issues of racism rather than telling a compelling story about characters [00:39:00] who, like learn or have a redemption arc of some kind, like justice leaves and is exactly the way she was before she met Theo learned absolutely nothing. And , It's sad. Those characters could have been so much more well developed.

[00:39:15] Kelsey: It didn't have to be written that way. But she, as a white woman, that's her entry point. And so I, I'm not surprised that she didn't understand Theo's , perspective and, character, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:39:31] Amanda: I mean, when I, so a friend recommended this book to me, , she and I both love, you know, historical fiction.

[00:39:37] Amanda: We both love Geraldine Brooks and she wanted me to read the book cause she liked it. And she was like, but there's something about the book that is. It's problematic, and I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are going to be, which was the ending. Surprise, surprise. And she and I ended up having a conversation about it after I finished the book, because I think there is a lot there and I kind of have mixed feelings [00:40:00] about it.

[00:40:00] Amanda: And having not read any of Geraldine Brooks or listened to any of Geraldine Brooks interviews about this book, , I don't know her thinking or intention behind. the writing of the ending. And a lot of times for these episodes, I like to come into it with just my thoughts because I don't want to be like influenced by other things.

[00:40:19] Amanda: Although I do think it's good to have context. I probably will at some point do a bit of research and looking into that. But from my perspective, having read it, I think that, , I like the way that she juxtaposed racism in the past with racism in 2019. I think it's very easy as a reader in 2024 to look at this book and for a lot of people, regardless of how they identify racially, to be like, Oh yeah, I can clearly see like the bad guys, quote unquote, in the 1850s, like the slave owners and people are doing these horrible things.

[00:40:51] Amanda: It's like, Folks like, you know, even Pryor, et cetera, who's another character in the book. It's really easy for us to look at that and be like, yes, black and white, racist, bad. It gets a little bit more [00:41:00] nuanced when we're looking at behaviors in 2019 and I'm saying that from white people's perspectives. I think as a person of color, it's really clear to us when micro and macro aggressions are happening because we're on the receiving end.

[00:41:13] Amanda: And so I, And I liked that she incorporated moments in Theo and Jess story where for a lot of white people, they could read this, those moments and be like, is that racist? Is that racist? Have I said something like that? Did I realize the impact? And so we do think, first of all, I don't think this book, this book was not written for people of color, in my opinion.

[00:41:34] Amanda: , I think it was definitely written. I completely 

agree with that. 

[00:41:37] Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. I think it was written largely for a white audience. And my hope. when I was reading was like, Oh, hopefully Geraldine as a white person is going to use her privilege to perhaps educate other white people on problematic behaviors.

[00:41:50] Amanda: And I think there is a way to read this in which she does do that in that we, we know Jess is problematic. I don't know that, again, a lot of white readers would [00:42:00] automatically pick up on that without someone spelling it out for them. So I think it's important that she puts that in there and is like, yeah, this is problematic.

[00:42:06] Amanda: You assuming that this black man that's near your bike or bike that looks like yours or whatever is stealing your bike. Problematic. You are wrong. You did a shitty thing. , and I think she does make stuff like that pretty clear, including like Catherine to Catherine's another character in the book.

[00:42:20] Amanda: She's working with Jess and studying the skull and the bones of Lexington. She also makes that comment, I think, at dinner where she kind of dismisses the role that race can play in certain issues. And again, that's something that white people often do without either realizing it or realizing how problematic it can be.

[00:42:38] Amanda: And so I do appreciate that. She kind of highlighted those things and pointed them out and was like, Hey. This is bad. This too is also racist. Owning people in the 1850s, racist, saying things like this in 2020 or 2019, also racist, equally as bad. Well, maybe not equally, but also bad. I mean, perpetuating the same, same, perpetuating the same.

[00:42:59] Amanda: Yes, exactly. [00:43:00] Perpetuating the same agenda and issue. , in terms of. Theo choosing Jess, I agree. I did not fully understand that as a person of color, as a woman of color, if I was If there was a white guy who was saying and doing the things that Jess was, I wouldn't be like, yeah, let me like, just set that aside and continue to pursue a romantic relationship.

[00:43:22] Amanda: So that rang really false for me. I didn't understand it. And I am 100 percent on the same page. 

[00:43:28] Kelsey: And that's the only way that she could make Jess work. That was why it had to be that way. And that's why I think it could have been done in such a better way. , but as a white woman, I think that was, That was how she could best conceptualize it, right, by making Theo this plot device rather than an actual in depth character.

[00:43:47] Amanda: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, 

[00:43:49] Kelsey: that bothered me. 

[00:43:50] Amanda: I, and I, and I think too, to that point about him being used as a plot device, which again comes like the crux of the issue, which is him being murdered at the end. 

Mm hmm. 

[00:43:58] Amanda: I [00:44:00] have, I'm like, I've two minds about it. One is like, yeah, I did feel like kind of this plot device.

[00:44:03] Amanda: And then suddenly the story did kind of become about like Jess and how this death impacted her, , and like, and her feelings. But I also think depending on how you read it, like Jess's response is authentic. and accurate to how a lot of white people respond to the killing of black men and black women.

[00:44:27] Amanda: So to me, you could read and be like, yeah, this sucks. And this is awful, but this happens all the time. And this is how white people respond and you could read it as like, you could read it as like kind of a cautionary to like, don't do this, right? This is bad. If you don't have that insight or that knowledge or, , self awareness, you could just read and be like, Oh, yep, like that tracks and, and, and poor Theo and poor Jess.

[00:44:55] Amanda: , I would hope, and I don't know that she is, I would hope that Geraldine Brooks is [00:45:00] being a bit more, I don't know if subversive is the right word, and it's like, I'm including this to highlight the fact that this happens all the time and ultimately, and in spite of the fact that it is black people that are suffering, it is white people that are still the ones that are, , Feeling bad.

[00:45:16] Amanda: And it's still about them. It's still centering whiteness and, white, , trauma and, or white guilt. And so I read it. I think that's one way you could read it. , and if you read it that way, it's a little bit less problematic. I think if you read it that 

[00:45:30] Kelsey: way, 

[00:45:30] Amanda: if you read it that way as a black person, right.

[00:45:33] Amanda: It kind of drove me a bit crazy. Cause it's like, Oh my God, like here we are like, again. Utilizing like black trauma as a plot point. Like why are we always the ones that have to be murdered or violated or abused or whatever like when are we gonna have a story that It's about just who we are as individuals, where we don't have to be the strong ones.

[00:45:54] Amanda: We don't have to be like, like we can just be, we can just be. And so I [00:46:00] have a lot of feelings and I feel like I'm not necessarily doing the best job of articulating both sides of this. All that to say, if you read it one way, it could be a condemnation of the way in which white people respond to racism.

[00:46:14] Amanda: Specifically like police brutality and killing of black men and black women. On the other hand, if you don't have that again, awareness, you're just going to read this flat and be like, Oh yeah, like poor Jess. And, and how tragic for another black man to lose his life and boohoo. But like, we're going to remember and honor him and keep on moving.

[00:46:31] Amanda: And, and so I, I do think. It depends on who's reading this book to see how they're going to respond. 

[00:46:38] Kelsey: And I'm curious, like, because I was also like looking on Tik TOK and like trying to figure out like what people feel about this book. And surprise, surprise. I saw a lot of white women, their book clubs, , raving about this book.

[00:46:53] Kelsey: And I, I don't know the inner, inner going zones, , of their conversations, but I just [00:47:00] highly doubt that they're thinking of Jess in this way. Or they're just saying, yeah, like Jess is like, that kind of seems not right. Or, you know, like, I don't think they're, I think you're giving the author too much grace in how she, , portrayed these, these folks.

[00:47:18] Kelsey: , but that is one way of looking at it. Yeah. 

[00:47:20] Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, like, again, I, I think I'm probably leaning a bit more towards your side. I don't, I don't know enough about Geraldine Brooks, but I don't know that she's like, How critically she's engaging in the dialogue around race and how intentional she was being and trying to, interrogate, you know, things that are happening in our society right now in regards to race.

[00:47:44] Amanda: I think there's a little bit of that happening. I don't think she's an idiot. I think she's a very intelligent person. I think she does do her research and I think she's aware of, of the conversations and dialogue happening. So, , again, I would have to Yeah. Look at some interviews, listen to some interviews for sure.

[00:47:59] Amanda: [00:48:00] But I agree that a lot of those white women book clubs are probably like having those responses that you just referred to. 

[00:48:06] Kelsey: , and I wanted to know more about Geraldine. Like I was like, okay, am I crazy? , and I might, I might be a little bit, but also, the other thing that I'm struggling with historical fiction a little bit, and maybe it's just.

[00:48:21] Kelsey: this book, but also a lot of historical fiction receive like awards and like really great, like praise. , and I don't always know that that is, , like warranted. Exactly. Thank you. I don't always know that that's warranted or if it's just money. Going into money. Does that make sense? Like, because she clearly has a huge following and she's well known in this community and has like a big ass publisher spreading her books.

[00:48:49] Kelsey: Right. And sometimes at some point, it doesn't matter what an author writes. They're still going to get recognized for their work because of their name and how much money is going [00:49:00] into, , The book itself. And so I have questions around that. And, you know, you and I talked about, , potentially talking about like book awards and things.

[00:49:09] Kelsey: And that's kind of the thing that I'm talking about is like, is it really based on merit or is it really based on money? Which a lot of the things in our society are based on money rather than actual merit. And so I question, , book awards. , I will jump in 

[00:49:23] Amanda: quickly though and say that you 

[00:49:24] Kelsey: could make that argument about any 

[00:49:25] Amanda: genre, not just historical fiction.

[00:49:28] Kelsey: Well, okay. Let me get to my point. , and the thing about historical fiction and I sent you that Tik Tok about that woman portraying the different genres. Did you see, did you notice how she was dressed as historical fiction? I don't recall. It was like academic. More than academic. It was like kind of posh.

[00:49:48] Kelsey: , and that's the vibe that like historical fiction gives me. It's almost like self important. It's pretentious. It's pompous. Yeah. And so that is the vibe that I got from Geraldine [00:50:00] Brooks in this book. And so, , because the other thing that happens too, is like books are written to receive awards. Books are are trying hard to make sure that they're, they're, , recognized for these things. And it's not always because, you know, like I just said, like, just because a story is being told. And so I looked up some of her interviews and I wanted to share with you one of the things that just like, Exactly proved my point.

[00:50:27] Kelsey: , where it's like readers can be like, you and I are talking like about this, like readers can be any type of reader. It doesn't matter. You're reading and that's, what's great. Yeah. And so one of the interviews that she sent, it said, , the question was what book should everybody read before the age of 21?

[00:50:47] Kelsey: Her response was I taught writing at Harvard last year and half of my students had never read a Shakespeare story. That set my hair on fire. And thinking about that, like, yeah, [00:51:00] that is so pretentious. Like, yeah, maybe people don't have access to Shakespeare in place. Maybe they don't have interest in Shakespeare plays.

[00:51:08] Kelsey: Like that's okay. If someone doesn't like read a particular work, right. And let's move on. Yeah. Anyway, I don't think I have to like hone in on that . , another thing that she had said about her own, her own, this is for self importance kind of coming out. Okay. , and this was like, she said, I'm reluctant reader of my own genre because I become too frustrated when overbearing research crushes the soul out of the story or when careless inaccuracies wrench me out of the period.

[00:51:43] Kelsey: And so obviously she's saying, I don't do that. Other, other authors do that. And so I feel like there's this air of self importance and I was just like, interesting. This was a , New York times article, , interview that she did. And so I was just, I was curious to learn more about her.

[00:51:59] Kelsey: And I kind [00:52:00] of found a few things that like, I was like, okay, that doesn't surprise me. , because that's that's kind of the feeling that I get. got from her as an author. 

[00:52:08] Amanda: Yeah. I mean, I think to your point about historical fiction or historical fiction, authors feeling pretentious. , I can see that I could, I could understand where someone would like reach that conclusion.

[00:52:23] Amanda: , because of the nature of the genre in that unlike other genres, some other genres, good historical fiction does. Of involve a fair amount of research. It does involve you being well read to a certain extent. It has this like academic scholarly element that not all other genres have. I mean, I think most books involve some element of research, right?

[00:52:46] Amanda: But I think historical fiction relies on it a lot more than other genres. And so I can understand it coming across as being a bit more pompous , , in contrast to like other. genres that people enjoy. So I won't, I won't [00:53:00] completely agree, disagree with you on that. I guess I would not frame it as pretentious.

[00:53:03] Amanda: I would just say like, it might be more academic and scholarly in some ways. It doesn't have to be. I think there's. Historical fiction, again, depending on who wrote it and what their aims are, that can be a bit more, , I don't know, down to earth, grounded, accessible, but, , I enjoy history in and of itself.

[00:53:20] Amanda: So, I come to these historical fiction books because I'm like, I want to learn more about this particular moment in history. I already have interest in it. I do come to it as a student in some ways. Like I want to be entertained, but I also want to learn more about what life might've been like in this particular time period.

[00:53:38] Amanda: So that doesn't bother me as much. , And I do think there's historical fiction of all stripes that can appeal to a broad readership. , Geraldine Brooks, however, is a historical fiction author who does very much focus on those details and does look for those little inaccuracies, which I in particular, like, I want, if I'm going to be reading a book to learn something and not just be entertained, I want to make [00:54:00] sure I'm like learning things that are accurate to that time period.

[00:54:02] Amanda: That's 

the thing is like, you don't know what's real and what's not. Even so, 

[00:54:07] Amanda: but I think that's why a lot of these books have author's notes at the beginning or end where they're like, this is what was real. And this is what was not. And I think she does that. A lot of historical authors do that very intentionally because they don't want people to come by thinking like, Oh, I read this book and now I have this 100 percent is real.

[00:54:23] Amanda: Yeah. And so any good historical fiction author is going to have, again, a forward author's notes, et cetera, to help you delineate. And they often will also, and here comes the academic part, they will also then recommend actual historical books that you can go to do additional research and learn more about what actually happened.

[00:54:42] Amanda: , which I, I, again, that's like maybe the nerdy part of me, which I really appreciate. 

[00:54:45] Kelsey: Yeah, and I think that's what I like about historical fiction are the details and like getting to know like different aspects of history.

[00:54:54] Kelsey: , that's also what I like about memoirs because sometimes memoirs will be, , You know, about these different [00:55:00] events in history. , and I get to look them up and see like what was real and what was not. And, , I do like that aspect. I don't want to come across that. I don't like that aspect. I just didn't particularly like her take on, , the details of the black men that she decided to write about in this book.

[00:55:19] Kelsey: , and then also I have read historical fiction. It's not my like first, like introduction, but , I told you about a leaf Shafak, , who is the Turkish writer, , or author. And she wrote, the bastard of Istanbul, which was very like eyeopening.

[00:55:35] Kelsey: I know nothing of like Turkish or, , Armenian history. And so like, Being propelled into that like it is it is interesting and there was nothing like problematic with that book And I recommended it to you. I was like, hey, I think you would like this book, but you didn't really like the book though No, but I didn't really like the book like it was interesting but it was boring to me because I just didn't I [00:56:00] just didn't get into the characters and things like that and so It's not because the genre itself is boring I don't know.

[00:56:08] Kelsey: Maybe it is the genre. I don't necessarily like, but I like the aspect is what I'm trying to say of the details of history and learning about those things. , but I can see how tricky it could be for an author of historical fiction to get into the weeds of people's thoughts and feelings and they don't know what they actually were, especially if you're going to base it on real people.

[00:56:30] Kelsey: Exactly. So that it was a choice that she made. 

[00:56:33] Amanda: And it's, and it's not something that's like particular to this book, right? There have been lots of discussions over lots of historical fiction books over the years and decades in which someone is portraying a character who is based on a real person or an event that really happened.

[00:56:46] Amanda: And it's like, okay, how much creative license is okay. When is this problematic? When are you like, do you have the right to do this and essentially kind of rewrite someone's story? , so yeah, I feel that. Yeah. And I think that's, that is a [00:57:00] going to be an ongoing conversation slash issue within the historical fiction world.

[00:57:04] Amanda: And it's really, great that we brought it up and touched on it because we will read more historical fiction. Yay. , but I think that's something that you'll continue to. Encounter that we both will. Any historical fiction reader. Well, give me some like, , POC authors. Yeah, no. So I, one of the, one of the authors that I want us to read is, , Colson Whitehead, who is, , a black male author and he writes, , historical fiction.

[00:57:32] Amanda: I don't know if he's written other things other than historical fiction. I've only read things that he's written that are set in the past. Excellent. Amazing. , I think you'll really enjoy it. Well, I don't know that you'll enjoy them because I will find first of them. You might still be bored, but it won't be problematic in the way I think that this book was.

[00:57:50] Amanda: So I will keep that in mind as I'm choosing future historical fiction books. Thank you. Because I do 

[00:57:56] Kelsey: think as we're reading, like we're really figuring out [00:58:00] like each other's 

[00:58:01] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:58:02] Kelsey: Taste. , we're going to know each other real well, 

[00:58:06] Amanda: And I also think, and this is a sort of an ADHD tangent , but I think it might be interesting to do a future podcast episode about who gets to write whose stories, , you know, do white people get to write, , stories about people of color, do people of color get to write stories about white people?

[00:58:21] Amanda: Like how. How is that like, 

[00:58:24] Kelsey: I don't, well, I guess like to make a point, the only reason I brought that up is because I felt this was poorly executed. I don't think that it's impossible for 

[00:58:34] Amanda: other 

[00:58:35] Kelsey: people to write about other people's, , perspectives, and backgrounds, but in my opinion, she did this very poorly.

[00:58:42] Kelsey: And so that's why it was like, she should not be writing about. People of color. , so yeah, I just wanted to make sure people understood that I'm not generalizing that. , and yes. Okay. 

[00:58:57] Amanda: Well, let's use that as a lovely [00:59:00] little transition because I know this is definitely going to be a longer episode. So let's transition into our literally the best, literally the worst.

[00:59:07] Amanda: I'm going to pull up my notes here. , and we're going to see what Folks on Goodreads had to say about this book, and I'm looking at the ones that I pulled, , and I'm thinking about the point that she made earlier about, like, white women in their book clubs, like, raving about this. 

[00:59:25] Kelsey: They're all white women, aren't they?

[00:59:27] Amanda: Some of them did have pictures next to theirs. No way! I don't know if they're all white women, because they didn't all have actual photos. Some of them were just like, you know, like clip art or whatever. But I know a couple of them have pictures. Photos of white women who I'm assuming is who they are. So now I'm like, 

[00:59:41] Kelsey: ah, dang it.

[00:59:42] Kelsey: I also need to make a note because you can see that some of Geraldine's followers are quite right leaning. And, , that was like a lot of what the one star reviews were. I'm not going to read any of those, because they were [01:00:00] pissed off that she had some sort of agenda in this book and, , said they, they didn't want anything to do with that.

[01:00:07] Kelsey: And I was like, God, 

[01:00:09] Amanda: I guess that's a good thing then, because that means this book is coming off as like highlighting, hopefully. The ways in which justice behavior is problematic, right? 

[01:00:20] Kelsey: How slavery is portrayed, you know, I think they didn't in those reviews, they didn't like specify. I'm sure they're talking about slavery, but also exactly what you're saying is, , Theo's murder.

[01:00:33] Amanda: Yeah. For those of you who can't see it, Kelsey's just over here. Sneezing away. Hang in there. We're, we're so close to the end. , all right, well I'll start since Kelsey is currently having a sneezing fit. I'm going to go ahead and read the, my first, literally the best review. This comes from Angela M is taking a break.

[01:00:57] Amanda: That's like their full handle. Angela M is [01:01:00] taking a break. And it says, Imaginative and impeccably researched historical fiction, wonderfully written, as well as skillfully structured, with characters to connect to and a story that moved me. This is pretty much everything I could have asked for in a novel.

[01:01:16] Amanda: All of this in a story about a horse, yet it is about much more than A story about a magnificent racing horse. It is about the injustice of slavery, selling people like they sold horses, families separated, and the racism that continues years later with tragic consequences.

[01:01:33] Amanda: Yeah. I actually agree with a lot of that summary or review, I should say. I keep turning off 

[01:01:40] Kelsey: my microphone because I keep sneezing and I don't want that to be a distraction while you're reading your review. Oh my god. No, you're good. You're good. I'm dying over here. I'm so sorry. Let's see if I can get through this one.

[01:01:52] Kelsey: Okay. , , The other thing that I wanted to say, so Goodreads, I didn't go super deep into Goodreads. I ended up taking [01:02:00] from other places too, , I can't remember where this came from, to be honest, but I have the person's name. It was Charfield. , I did, have problems with Theo and Jess. Number one, I don't believe their plot line.

[01:02:11] Kelsey: Had to exist to begin with it felt useless and just kind of took me out of the story. I was actually enjoying you lose nothing of value by cutting them out. Second, they meet because Jess overreacts to what she believes To be Theo stealing her bike, but it turns out she just forgot where she parked it.

[01:02:31] Kelsey: Identical bike. This sets the stage for literally every interaction they have with each other. We're just as something that could be deemed as racially insensitive. Panic says she needs to stop saying dumb things. And then proceeds to say more dumb things. Meanwhile, a white author decides to focus unsurprisingly on Jess's white guilt about the situations she puts herself in every day.

[01:02:53] Kelsey: And not, in fact, on the way Theo is affected by anything she does, , Brooks attempts to talk [01:03:00] about American blackness book words, not mine, but focuses less on how it might be harmful that minorities in academia as Theo is in graduate school , have to fit into elitist mindsets that oftentimes compartmentalize themselves to do that.

[01:03:17] Amanda: Yeah, I mean, that's something we definitely didn't talk about in our discussion, which we could have, which is, yeah, the way in which being black or being a person.

[01:03:26] Amanda: Person of color and elite academic institutions or circles and like what that looks like and feels like in the challenges that it presents. Like that's a whole other discussion. , but I'm glad they brought that up. Cause that's, that's a valid point. Okay. , next, this is from Diane S. Brooks is brilliant.

[01:03:45] Amanda: Even when the synopsis of her book doesn't seem interesting, she proves the reader wrong time and time again. Combining the story of a legendary racehorse in the past with the racial injustice that was rampant then, with the racial injustice that is still present now, is [01:04:00] masterful. At first, I was much more invested in the past story, but by Brooks end, I was thoroughly invested in both, heartbreakingly so.

[01:04:08] Amanda: So I do appreciate this person does recognize that there is plenty of racial injustice happening and the few and just timeline storyline. , and I will also quickly add the reason why it took me forever to read this book. My friend recommended this book to me, I don't know, maybe a year or so ago. And I kept putting it off because I was like, I don't want to read a book about a horse.

[01:04:25] Amanda: I am not interested in horse racing at all. And she's like, no, no, no. It's so much more than that. I'm like, the book is called horse. So I do track with that bit about The synopsis doesn't sound like it's gonna be interesting, but yeah, I did find it engaging. All right. Your turn. 

[01:04:39] Kelsey: So my next one, deje de hmm, excuse me. Degenerate Chemist . Horse is a pretty mediocre novel that I would normally give three stars. There is nothing in this book that stands out as particularly excellent, except maybe the research that went into it. Characters are bland.

[01:04:57] Kelsey: The plot is predictable and pacing [01:05:00] is slow and dull. There is nothing particularly offensive about it, But there is nothing all that amazing about it either. This book is far more of a horse book than it is about race issues. Then we get into the interactions between Jess and Theo, and I wanted to drink myself into oblivion for how poorly they were written.

[01:05:17] Kelsey: The initial meeting between the star. The two starts with a mix up because the two of them own the same bike, just overreact. Theo handles himself like an adult and the two briefly go their separate ways. Then just spends literal chapters obsessing over how traumatized and embarrassed she is by her own racism.

[01:05:35] Kelsey: Yes, because she is the person we should be focusing on in this incident. Afterwards, she spends her time being hyper aware that Theo is gas black man. I feel like I could point to this book as a manual for the things racist white liberals do that irritate me short of white saviors nonsense.

[01:05:54] Kelsey: Fortunately, there were very few white savior incidents to be found in this book. In [01:06:00] short, this is a book about race written by a white woman for other white women. Take that as you will. 

[01:06:06] Amanda: Yeah, again, I, that tracks.

[01:06:08] Amanda: , I mean, I don't agree with it being a mid book overall, but the bit about the way in which it centers Jess and her whiteness totally tracks. All right. Last one for me. This is from mainline Booker. And they say, can I give this book a rating of 10 plus? I can't remember the last time I have been so enthralled with a book from start to finish on so many divergent levels.

[01:06:31] Amanda: It ticked off all the boxes for elevating a book from good to great masterfully written, authentic dialogue of the time period, seamless meshing of different timelines, fascinating, accessible historical information. I know I am gushing, but this book affected me in ways I did not expect. Let me make it clear.

[01:06:50] Amanda: I am not a horse person. I know nothing about them. Wrote a few times and got bucked off once, but never had any interest them, but switch to the completion of this book. And it's a horse [01:07:00] of a different color. And then they themselves wrote grown. You'll be sorry if you don't run out and bury yourself in this clever, lavishly, and meticulously researched novel.

[01:07:10] Amanda: So this person clearly enjoyed it probably even more than I did. But yeah, those are, you said you 

[01:07:18] Kelsey: gave it a five star. 

[01:07:20] Amanda: Yeah, but I wouldn't give it a 10 plus. 

[01:07:22] Kelsey: Sure. I wouldn't go like above 

[01:07:23] Amanda: and beyond. Like I'm not, I did enjoy it. Not to that level of gushiness. It's 

[01:07:27] Kelsey: so funny to see the differences in reviewers because, , in a previous episode, like, About one of my fantasy books, like the people were like raving about, and they were just like obsessed, like obsessed.

[01:07:39] Kelsey: And I don't think either of us are like that type of reader. Like I love stories and I love characters and books, but I'm definitely not like, I will die if I don't get it. blah, blah, blah, or something, you know, like that's the vibe that I get from a lot of readers when we're reading these. It's hilarious.

[01:07:56] Kelsey: And I love it, but I'm just not like more like, [01:08:00] yeah, I like that. That was cool. 

[01:08:02] Amanda: I think we're just more like a little bit more grounded. 

[01:08:07] Kelsey: So this last one is from an anonymous poster on, , kind of like a Reddit site. , so it's just like a forum. And people can talk about books. And so this is my overall impression of Brooks as a writer.

[01:08:21] Kelsey: One dimensional characters who are just there to advance an agenda. The thing is, I often agree with her agenda. If horse is anti racism, I'm all in. But these points could be made so much better. better by working them around complex characters and plot lines. Brooks began as a journalist and she hasn't learned the novelist skills of showing not telling. 

[01:08:42] Amanda: Oh, I definitely disagree with that. Like full on disagree with that because I think some of the books we've already read on this podcast are definitely, I won't name names are definitely more like telling versus showing.

[01:08:55] Amanda: And , I 

[01:08:56] Kelsey: think she actually does a really great job. That was the. That was the other thing that [01:09:00] I wanted to point out about her history. Did you know that she was a journalist? No, I didn't know that. So she, so she's from Australia, right? And she, , is a journalist, but she was like an international journalist where she would travel to different Areas of the world and she has books from different areas of the world and has decided to write novels about the places that she has visited in the past.

[01:09:23] Kelsey: And , I even, Oh my God, I found out that she wrote a book. What is it? Caleb's passing. Have you heard of that one? Yeah, I've read it. Caleb's crossing. Yeah. , and one of the characters in there is a wop, wop. Oh my God. Man. And I was like, dear God, I will never read that. And I already know what's coming.

[01:09:43] Kelsey: Like I, it enraged me to know that she wrote a book from, , an indigenous person's perspective with how, yeah, I've here. I was like, 

[01:09:55] Amanda: I've read that book. I read it a long time ago, especially before I did a lot of my own work around my racial [01:10:00] identity. So I wonder how I would respond to it now as like a 36 year old.

[01:10:04] Amanda: , but I did, I read all of her. Big novels. So I have 

[01:10:07] Kelsey: read that. So that just gives me a lot of insight. And she has a son that she adopted from Ethiopia. So just kind of giving you some insight into what kind of writer she is. 

[01:10:20] Amanda: All right. I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to make assumptions because I don't know her, but that.

[01:10:23] Amanda: I do have, I do have feelings. I have feelings about white people adopting children of color from other countries, but again, I don't want to, 

[01:10:33] Kelsey: yeah, pass discretions. 

[01:10:33] Amanda: Sorry, 

[01:10:33] Kelsey: I had to throw that in there at the last minute. Right 

[01:10:36] Amanda: under the 

[01:10:36] Kelsey: wire. 

[01:10:37] Amanda: All right, well, let's, , let's, let's, let's wrap this up. We've, we've been at this for a while and, , Yeah, let's, let's, what do we do at the end?

[01:10:45] Amanda: Okay. , social, trying to under ourselves, . 

[01:10:48] Kelsey: I know. , I'm sick. I'm distracting. Amanda . 

[01:10:53] Amanda: Okay. Get it together. , yeah. So as a, as a quick final little plug. Don't forget socials Instagram, , lit [01:11:00] Five's only underscore podcast. Yeah. TikTok and YouTube at Lit Vibes only Podcast. Shoot us an email if you feel so inclined.

[01:11:07] Amanda: Lit Vibes only podcast@gmail.com And then again. Last little reminder, don't forget to rate and review, take a screenshot of that lovely review. Send it to us on our DMs or to our email and we'll send you a sticker and it'll make everyone happy. So thank you. Including us. Including us. All right. Awesome.

[01:11:28] Amanda: That is it for us. We will see you on Monday. 

[01:11:30] Kelsey: See you next Monday. 

[01:11:32] Amanda: Bye.